Hitchens Moves Closer To Death

[Tigger]

Actually, I think I should write Mandy in Gay rainbow font.
Edit: How did that happen?
Edit again: Bloody moderators taking liberties. Give 'em an Insha' and they'll take a mile.

[Tero]

Huh? Religion not requiring any supernatural component?
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2011/06/20/23128/

some Hitchens 2010 and 2011 articles
http://www.hitchensweb.com/

nice bit about writing

The rules are much the same: Avoid stock expressions (like the plague, as William Safire used to say) and repetitions. Don’t say that as a boy your grandmother used to read to you, unless at that stage of her life she really was a boy, in which case you have probably thrown away a better intro. If something is worth hearing or listening to, it’s very probably worth reading. So, this above all: Find your own voice.

[mistermack]

Saying that fighting against cancer helps might be a bit of selective concluding.
People who act like that might be able to, because they are not feeling as bad as those who don't. Like, the sick are getting sicker, the less sick are surviving.

I'm a great believer in double blind tests, as it's so easy to draw the wrong conclusions from anecdotes.
.

[Coito ergo sum]

I was saying that people people being physically better conditioned, can help their bodies fight illnesses. Making one's way through radiation and kemo treatments is easier if one has a robust constitution. People who are physically fit, active, eat right, exercise, and do all of those things are in a better position to withstand the ravages of those treatments.

And, it's not just anecdotal:

Aside from preventing cancer, exercise:
Improves your blood counts during chemotherapy.
Reduces the side effects of your cancer treatments.
Improves cancer survival rates.
Elevates your energy levels even during treatment.
Improves your quality of life, regardless of cancer.
Fights muscle-loss from advanced cancer.
Reduces depression and anxiety in patients and anyone at-risk.
In the on-going fight against cancer and the race for prevention, exercise is a tool for everyone.

http://www.3fatchicks.com/cancer-preven ... ity-guide/

Research indicates that physical activity after a diagnosis of breast cancer may be beneficial in improving quality of life, reducing fatigue (7), and assisting with energy balance. Both reduced physical activity and the side effects of treatment have been linked to weight gain after a breast cancer diagnosis. One study found that women who exercised moderately (the equivalent of walking 3 to 5 hours per week at an average pace) after a diagnosis of breast cancer had improved survival rates compared with more sedentary women. The benefit was particularly pronounced in women with hormone responsive tumors (10). Another study found that a home-based physical activity program had a beneficial effect on the fitness and psychological well-being of previously sedentary women who had completed treatment for early-stage through stage II breast cancer (11). Increasing physical activity may influence insulin and leptin levels and influence breast cancer prognosis. Although there are several promising studies, it is too early to draw any strong conclusions regarding physical activity and breast cancer survival.

Two additional studies have suggested a protective association of physical activity after colon cancer diagnosis and survival. Researchers examined the relationship between levels of physical activity both before and after a diagnosis of colon cancer in two different observational studies. Whereas levels of pre-diagnosis physical activity were not related to survival, participants with higher levels of physical activity post-diagnosis were less likely to have a cancer recurrence and had increased survival (12). Although these studies suggest protective effects of physical activity, more research is needed to understand what levels of physical activity provide these benefits.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fact ... alactivity


McTiernan A, editor. Cancer Prevention and Management Through Exercise and Weight Control. Boca Raton: Taylor & Francis Group, LLC, 2006.

Tardon A, Lee WJ, Delgado-Rodriguez M, et al. Leisure-time physical activity and lung cancer: A meta-analysis. Cancer Causes and Control 2005; 16(4):389–397.

Giovannucci EL, Liu Y, Leitzmann MF, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC. A prospective study of physical activity and incident and fatal prostate cancer. Archives of Internal Medicine 2005; 165(9):1005–1010.

Holmes MD, Chen WY, Feskanich D, Kroenke CH, Colditz GA. Physical activity and survival after breast cancer diagnosis. Journal of the American Medical Association 2005; 293(20):2479–2486.

Pinto BM, Frierson GM, Rabin C, Trunzo JJ, Marcus BH. Home-based physical activity intervention for breast cancer patients. Journal of Clinical Oncology 2005; 23(15): 3577–3587.

Meyerhardt JA, Giovannucci EL, Holmes MD, et al. Physical activity and survival after colorectal cancer diagnosis. Journal of Clinical Oncology 2006; 24(22):3527–3534.

[mistermack]

I'm not convinced by those links.
I'm cynical about anecdotes, but even more cynical about anecdotes by people who are clearly selling something. ( first link ).

In subsequent ones, the conclusions of studies are suspect. Survival rate being better among those who exercise is a no-brainer. If you feel well enough to exercise, you have a head start.

They should really be looking deeper than that.
.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not convinced by those links.

You mean you're not convinced by the National Cancer Institute: And, the fact that several peer reviewed journals are cited for the proposition? What would convince you?

I'm cynical about anecdotes, but even more cynical about anecdotes by people who are clearly selling something. ( first link ).

In subsequent ones, the conclusions of studies are suspect. Survival rate being better among those who exercise is a no-brainer. If you feel well enough to exercise, you have a head start.

? It's not about "feeling well enough to exercise" - it's about ACTUALLY exercising vs not exercising.

They should really be looking deeper than that.
.

They looked pretty deep - and used clinical studies with control groups.

Just use the same logic you apply to pictures on cigarette packs. You accept some far thinner evidence for the proposition that people will be saved by pictures on cigarette packs, and you didn't even need a study of any kind. You were happy to rely on pure speculation there. Here, when suggesting that people could improve their own constitutions relative to cancer, you appear not to be willing to accept even clinical studies. Why don't you conclude, as with packs of ciggies with pics on them, that if it even helps just a few people, it's worth it....

[mistermack]

Like I said, it's a self-fulfilling statistic. Those who are too sick to exercise will always fall into the category of those who don't exercise. So even if exercise had NO beneficial effect, you would always be able to produce statistics that indicate better survival rates for exercisers.
You could do the same for masturbation. Those fighting cancer who masturbate regularly would probably have a better survival rate. Because those who are sicker wouldn't feel like it. But it wouldn't be logical to promote masturbation as a cure for cancer.

It may well be that people who exercised regularly BEFORE they got cancer stand a better chance, because of their better overall health. But that can't be extrapolated into the conclusion that exercise benefits cancer patients.

You would have to do a study where people who were not regular exercisers improved survival rates by taking up exercise after they got sick. Good luck with that.

Personally, I doubt it very much. And all you are doing is making people feel guilty about not "fighting cancer" at the most miserable time of their lives.

As far as pictures on cigarette packs go, they don't hurt anybody, they don't make anyone feel guilty or miserable, and what's more, they are THE FACTUAL TRUTH, not someone's faddy theory.
.

[Coito ergo sum]

Like I said, it's a self-fulfilling statistic. Those who are too sick to exercise will always fall into the category of those who don't exercise. So even if exercise had NO beneficial effect, you would always be able to produce statistics that indicate better survival rates for exercisers.

Not correct, because any study done is going to be done by comparing a group of people who can and do exercise, with a group of people who can and don't exercise. They're not going to include catatonics in the study.

You could do the same for masturbation. Those fighting cancer who masturbate regularly would probably have a better survival rate. Because those who are sicker wouldn't feel like it. But it wouldn't be logical to promote masturbation as a cure for cancer.

Yes, but if you only did a study among those who could masturbate - and have some choosing not to masturbate, then you'd have a fair study.

It may well be that people who exercised regularly BEFORE they got cancer stand a better chance, because of their better overall health. But that can't be extrapolated into the conclusion that exercise benefits cancer patients.

However, the studies that were done did find benefits to cancer patients.

You would have to do a study where people who were not regular exercisers improved survival rates by taking up exercise after they got sick. Good luck with that.

Not if you had a statistical sampling of cancer patients that rant the gamut.

Personally, I doubt it very much. And all you are doing is making people feel guilty about not "fighting cancer" at the most miserable time of their lives.

Doubt it all you want, but there is evidence for it.

As far as pictures on cigarette packs go, they don't hurt anybody, they don't make anyone feel guilty or miserable, and what's more, they are THE FACTUAL TRUTH, not someone's faddy theory.
.

Sure they do - they make smokers "feel guilty" about not being able to quit the habit. Of course they make people feel guilty and miserable - it increases the stigma on people who are smokers. What's not the "factual truth" is that the images on ciggie packs are going to stop anyone from smoking.

[Ironclad]

Not correct, because any study done is going to be done by comparing a group of people who can and do exercise, with a group of people who can and don't exercise. They're not going to include catatonics in the study.

hehehehe hahahahha

[mistermack]

Not correct, because any study done is going to be done by comparing a group of people who can and do exercise, with a group of people who can and don't exercise. They're not going to include catatonics in the study.

Can you link that one again then, because I must have missed it. The first three links were rubbish, so I didn't get any farther.

Yes, but if you only did a study among those who could masturbate - and have some choosing not to masturbate, then you'd have a fair study.

Most wankers lie about it anyway. ( so I'm told ). And many people lie about exercise, and tell people what they want to hear.

However, the studies that were done did find benefits to cancer patients.

I think you'll find that they will find what they want to find.

Sure they do - they make smokers "feel guilty" about not being able to quit the habit. Of course they make people feel guilty and miserable - it increases the stigma on people who are smokers. What's not the "factual truth" is that the images on ciggie packs are going to stop anyone from smoking.

There's a bit of difference between making smokers a bit uncomfortable, and talking dying people into exercise which is likely to exhaust them, make their last days miserable, and could possibly shorten their lives even further.
I would like to see better evidence than yours, before I could recommend that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Not correct, because any study done is going to be done by comparing a group of people who can and do exercise, with a group of people who can and don't exercise. They're not going to include catatonics in the study.

Can you link that one again then, because I must have missed it. The first three links were rubbish, so I didn't get any farther.

Just click on the National Cancer Institute link and scroll down. It cites the studies on which they rely.

Yes, but if you only did a study among those who could masturbate - and have some choosing not to masturbate, then you'd have a fair study.

Most wankers lie about it anyway. ( so I'm told ). And many people lie about exercise, and tell people what they want to hear.

Speculative musings are speculative.

However, the studies that were done did find benefits to cancer patients.

I think you'll find that they will find what they want to find.

Hand waving. If the study agrees with my position, I am comfortable relying on it. If it doesn't, then it's not reliable.

Sure they do - they make smokers "feel guilty" about not being able to quit the habit. Of course they make people feel guilty and miserable - it increases the stigma on people who are smokers. What's not the "factual truth" is that the images on ciggie packs are going to stop anyone from smoking.

There's a bit of difference between making smokers a bit uncomfortable, and talking dying people into exercise which is likely to exhaust them, make their last days miserable, and could possibly shorten their lives even further.
I would like to see better evidence than yours, before I could recommend that.

Exercise doesn't make people miserable. There are other studies that show it increases a person's feeling of having strength or energy, it has been shown to assist in reducing stress and reducing anxiety, and even reducing depression. Far from making people miserable, exercise helps make their days more bearable. Further, it's not necessarily their "last days." The whole idea of cancer treatment is to lengthen a person's days.

You say "could possibly shorten their lives even further," without a shred of evidence, and then state you'll need better evidence than mine before you could recommend it. That's fairly incongruous. Doctors, who treat cancer patients all the time, are comfortable recommending exercise and related activities as part of treatment programs. So, with all due respect to your recommendations....

[Coito ergo sum]

Hitchens' weekly article on Slate.com didn't get posted yet. It's usually out on Monday. Any word on if he's having a bad week? He's managed to post most weeks, and it's usually been his health that prevented him from posting on the rare weeks his article didn't get published....

[JimC]

Morbid thread is morbid...

[mistermack]

Just click on the National Cancer Institute link and scroll down. It cites the studies on which they rely.

Although there are several promising studies, it is too early to draw any strong conclusions regarding physical activity and breast cancer survival.

It might pay you to read your own posts now and then.
That NCI post is full of "mights" and "suggests" and totally ignores the fault in their reasoning that I have pointed out. And in the end, they admit that no "strong conclusions" can be drawn.
Is it alright to draw "weak conclusions" then?
The whole thing reeks of woo and wishful thinking.

[Coito ergo sum]

Just click on the National Cancer Institute link and scroll down. It cites the studies on which they rely.

Although there are several promising studies, it is too early to draw any strong conclusions regarding physical activity and breast cancer survival.

It might pay you to read your own posts now and then.
That NCI post is full of "mights" and "suggests" and totally ignores the fault in their reasoning that I have pointed out. And in the end, they admit that no "strong conclusions" can be drawn.
Is it alright to draw "weak conclusions" then?
The whole thing reeks of woo and wishful thinking.

Not as much woo and wishful thinking as "pictures on ciggie boxes", and yet you are more than willing to swallow that whole. Unfortunately, when it comes to science, most of what you get are degrees of might and suggest. If you're looking for unfalsifiable conclusions, look to religion.

Here is what the NIH article says about the studies that we do have:

Research indicates that physical activity after a diagnosis of breast cancer may be beneficial in improving quality of life, reducing fatigue (7), and assisting with energy balance. Both reduced physical activity and the side effects of treatment have been linked to weight gain after a breast cancer diagnosis. One study found that women who exercised moderately (the equivalent of walking 3 to 5 hours per week at an average pace) after a diagnosis of breast cancer had improved survival rates compared with more sedentary women. The benefit was particularly pronounced in women with hormone responsive tumors (10). Another study found that a home-based physical activity program had a beneficial effect on the fitness and psychological well-being of previously sedentary women who had completed treatment for early-stage through stage II breast cancer (11). Increasing physical activity may influence insulin and leptin levels and influence breast cancer prognosis.

Also, from another source:

For example, physical activity has been shown to reduce the risk of developing or dying from heart disease, diabetes, colon cancer, and high blood pressure. On average, people who are physically active outlive those who are inactive.

Obesity is Associated with an Increased Risk of: ..... cancer (endometrial, colon, kidney, esophageal, and postmenopausal breast cancer)

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/physicalactivity/

And, there is no indication that being physically active makes anything worse. Therefore, the suggestion and link between physical activity and reduced cancer risk, added to the suggestion and link between physical activity and better cancer recovery, better mental well-being during recovery, and better ability to deal with radiation and kemo, indicate that physical activity is worthwhile during cancer treatment. It's not wishful thinking. It's the best evidence we have right now.

You appear to generally take the side on any issue that discounts personal responsibility. That's probably at the root of this. If you can blame it on a corporation, then you'll accept something without evidence (pics on ciggies). If something places any burden or responsibility on an individual, even when there is scientific evidence, unless it is utterly irrefutable you will call it wishful thinking.

Add to that the link the between good mental health and physical activity:

Regular physical activity reduces morbidity and mortality from mental health disorders.27 Mental health disorders pose a significant public health burden in the United States and they are a major cause of hospitalization and disability. Mental health disorders cost approximately $148 billion per year.22 Potentially, increasing physical activity levels in Americans could substantially reduce medical expenditures for mental health conditions.

In adults with affective disorders, physical activity has a beneficial effect on symptoms of depression and anxiety.27 Animal research suggests that exercise may stimulate the growth of new brain cells that enhance memory and learning—two functions hampered by depression. Clinical studies have demonstrated the feasibility and efficacy of exercise as a treatment for depression in older men and women. Currently, National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) investigators are conducting research comparing the effectiveness of home-based and supervised aerobic exercise to the use of antidepressants in relieving depression in these groups, and reducing relapse rates. Other NIMH researchers are studying whether greater exercise levels result in more symptom improvement. Regular physical activity also appears to enhance well-being.

The preventive effects of physical activity on mental disorders are less well studied. Some studies suggest physical activity prevents depressive illness. Future research will clarify the extent to which physical activity may actually protect against the development of depression.

Regular physical activity may also reduce risk of cognitive decline in older adults, though more research is needed to clarify the mechanism of this possible effect. Among people who suffer from mental illness, physical activity appears to improve the ability to perform activities of daily living.27

Clearly, whatever can be done to improve one's mental state during kemo and radiation, and otherwise during cancer recovery processes, helps the patient, and exercise/physical activity has been shown to have a beneficial effect on depression and anxiety (which are things very typically associated with cancer patients - they often suffer from depression and anxiety).

And, poor physical fitness during cancer treatments after diagnosis increase the risk of recurrence of cancer: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/200 ... ivors.html

Another source - Yale University Press -

There is a strong relationship, and research in the last three years or so has been looking at physical activity performed roughly two years after diagnosis, so after finishing your treatment, as having a strong association with improving your prognosis and survival from cancer, or any other cause of death.

http://www.yalecancercenter.org/answers ... 16_08.html

You are saying, that if a woman has had cancer, she can improve her chance of survival and living a normal life by exercising?

Exactly, and we just recently published a study showing that women who reported walking, a simple activity such as brisk walking about three days per week for about 30 minutes per session, had approximately a 50% reduction in death. It could be related to weight control or certain hormonal mechanisms. We know that certain sex hormones, estrogens and androgens, are strongly related to breast cancer, so it could be that those hormones are reduced with physical activity levels. Insulin and insulin-like growth factors and certain inflammatory markers may be reduced with exercise, but also of importance is the fact that exercise is associated with

3:07 into mp3 file http://www.yalecancercenter.org/podcast ... -16-08.mp3
improvements in quality of life. For women who may be at higher stages of diagnosis, or who are feeling really fatigued from the treatment, exercise has been shown to improve their quality of life, decrease fatigue, and decrease depression and anxiety. There are benefits related to just your day-to-day quality of life, but also your survival.

http://www.yalecancercenter.org/answers ... 16_08.html

So, the link is not as tenuous as you would wish to believe.