I actually hate Christianity!

[Seth]

On the other hand, I've had many, many probative and interesting discussions with theists about religion, and have gone into great depth and detail in the examination of religious belief, and have almost never ended up in a shouting match. This is because I approach the subject respectfully and with due consideration for the feelings of those I'm discussing with. It is true that under close examination, they will become uncomfortable and sometimes will end the conversation by resorting to proclamations of faith, but when that happens I don't declare victory and dance around like a child, reveling in their discomfiture, I simply thank them for the interesting discussion and change the subject.

That's what rational adults do.

Ah - an approach you have brought to this forum then..

Indeed. I give anti-religious bigots all the consideration that they are due...

[Seth]

Various people, please note the title of the thread.

Rum hates christianity, not necessarily christians.

Rather important difference in semantics...

Not hardly. The title of the thread does not accurately reflect Rum's actual argument. What Rum actually said was:

Christianity has that thing in common with Islam, that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned. The evil that has been done in its name is appalling and beyond description.

This is, first and foremost, a blatant and mendacious mis-stating of Christian religious belief.

Second, the reference in the second sentence is directly aimed at persons, not the ideology.

Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Rum hates not only the ideology that he THINKS represents Christianity, but also that he hates those persons identifying themselves as Christians who have done "evil" according to his entirely absent definition of the word.

[Seth]

Christianity has a fairly limited impact on my life.... I really can't see how I could actually hate it.

I feel the same way about white wine , but nobody spent all my school years telling me if I didn't love oaked Chardonnay I was going to hell .Nor do I find leaflets pushed through my door saying there is a free after school club at Oddbins...

So what? Who cares? Why do you give a fuck? If you don't believe what Christians say about hell, why does it bother you? And if you don't like leafleting, then screw your mail slot closed. Otherwise, just dispose of it just as you do unsolicited advertising.

[Seth]

I'm with Rum.

Also, personal experience should not be dismissed wrt acknowledging how abusive religion is, in the same way that being raped counts for a personal understanding of why sexual assault is wrong that those who've not experienced rape cannot have. And personal experience does not mean that a more general informed opinion based on facts is not possible, it just adds an element of intimate understanding.

Wrong. This is just atheistic bigotry. Obviously, just as not all men are not rapists and cannot therefor rationally be viewed through the lens of the rape victim, not all Christians believe "that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned."

In fact, I would say that in my experience, those who hold this sort of militant radical belief in Christianity are in the exceedingly small minority, and that the vast majority of Christians are perfectly nice people who are happy to let everyone believe what they will.

Moreover, it's important, if one is a rational being and not a mere bigot spouting prejudice, to recognize that a Christian who wishes you to accept Christ as your personal savior is not performing some hostile act, he or she is trying to help you. However deluded their beliefs in the objective reality sense, if they bring the subject up, they are generally genuinely concerned not with an "us against them" attitude such as Rum suggests, but rather they are concerned with the individual's immortal soul, which they would like to see enjoy all the benefits and wonderful things that Jesus offers to those who believe in him, including eternal life.

It's not they who are condemning anyone to eternal torment, it's the individuals themselves who are doing that by rejecting the salvation that Christ died to attain for all mankind, if only they will receive it and believe.

Whether this is true or not, the motives of Christians are only rarely anything but good and altruistic. They want people to live good lives and accept Jesus and be saved from what awaits those who are either ignorant of Jesus' message or who are mired in sin and are being cozened by Satan and will therefor suffer great torments. This is not, as Rum suggests, "anti-human," it's precisely the opposite, although it may indeed be a delusion insofar as fact is concerned.

Religion exists because it is useful to individuals and societies. It has positive survival benefits for the human race, even though atheists don't like to admit it, which is why it's such an enduring institution.

So, it's simply either gross ignorance or deliberate bigotry to compare Christianity to Islam as Rum does, because it's simply not true. Sure there are some religious extremists in the Christian camp, but it's both unfair and irrational to tar every Christian with the same broad brush.

And if we're discussing comparative evil, the evil that's been done in the name of atheism and secularism has a far longer list of the dead.

In your rush to defend good christians you missed the fact that neither Charlou, nor Rum, whom she was agreeing with, was attacking them. They were commenting on what they thought about Christianity, and why they thought so. Your reaction - confusing criticism of a doctrine/institution with personal rudeness - is pretty typical (though not exclusive) of theists.

I disagree. Religion is inseparable from those who practice it, because religion is the process of practicing what you believe. One cannot disparage "Christianity" without simultaneously disparaging Christians, and you know it. So do Rum and Charlou.

Moreover, this thread began as a general condemnation of "Christianity" without any specific reference to doctrine, or parts of the doctrine that Rum might find offensive, and without any recognition whatsoever of whatever beneficial aspects the doctrine or practices might hold. It was a generalized attack on the beliefs of something like half of the population of the planet, and an attack on their personal character through the use of the fallacy of guilt by association.

It's one thing to say "I hate how the New Testament disparages homosexuality" (which it arguably doesn't), or "I hate how fundamentalist evangelical Christians hypocritically betray their own doctrines by judging others," and then discuss some aspect of of the doctrine in particular that one objects to. That's a rational and reasonable debate. But a generalized attack on the character of billions of people, most of whom have nothing but love in their hearts and wish nothing but peace and joy to everyone, is merely a bad-tempered outburst more typical of a four-year-old than a rational adult.

My reaction is to the implicit personal insult against the billions of people who are Christians who have never done anything remotely "evil" in connection with their faith whom Rum disparaged and insulted with his childish, irrational and ill-considered diatribes.

Of course, more likely, Rum was just stirring the pot. God knows I've done that a time or two myself.

[Seth]

Various people, please note the title of the thread.

Rum hates christianity, not necessarily christians.

Rather important difference in semantics...

This ^


I would add that I feel the same way about Islam, but not necessarily people who call themselves Muslims ... and Judaism, but not necessarily people who call themselves Jews. In fact, I don't hate people ... it really is dogma and some of the behaviours that arise from it that I detest, particularly dogma that holds that human beings are sinful and that sex and sexuality are wrong.

Here it is again ...

In The Case Against God, George H. Smith said, "In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation."

...unless, of course, Christians are correct, Jesus is the Son of God, and things aren't going to go well for those who don't accept Jesus as their personal savior.

And since that's what Christians believe, rather than being some nefarious Christian plot to make people unhappy so that Christianity can provide salvation as some sort of cynical ploy to control the world, the actual truth is that most Christians offer the salvation of Christ as a free gift, paid for by the suffering of Christ, that any person can accept or reject according to their own free will and personal judgment. That Christians also bring a warning of eternal damnation is not, as Smith suggests, an attempt to "destroy happiness," it's merely a good-faith attempt to save people from an inevitable consequence of refusing to accept the gifts of Christ's suffering and redemption. After all, if they are right, it's not their fault that others may be condemned to eternal torment, they are just letting people know how to avoid that end.

God may indeed be a right cruel bastard. but if God exists, even if he IS a right cruel bastard, because he can damn people to eternal torment one might be well advised to get on the right side of God. Which is all that Christians are suggesting. Unlike Islam, they don't spread their faith by the sword any more, they leave it up to the individual to decide. So did Jesus. If you want to be a non-believer, that's your right, and no Christian I know of will do anything other than pray for your salvation and regret that you refuse to accept it.

That's hardly a maleficent purpose, it's a loving, altruistic one. It's no more maleficent than a group of astronomers who have detected a planet-killing asteroid heading for earth urging people to reconcile with their estranged loved ones and prepare for the end of life on earth. For, don't you see, if God is a natural (or even supernatural) force in the universe, and Christians know his intentions for the future, it would be more cruel and evil of them to withhold that information and keep that chance at salvation and eternal life to themselves, now wouldn't it?

[Seth]

...the radical atheists, the ones who pronounce their hatred for religion, and are therefore practicing religion every bit as much as the theists they decry, generally have no consideration or respect for anyone else and will insult people of faith to their face, in the most egregiously infantile and hostile terms, without regard to anything other than their own hatred and antipathy.

That's a bit rich, coming from you. Shall we talk about communism and communists for a moment?

Yes, well, facts are facts. Marxism and Marxists, and Communism and Communists are inherently evil, you see. So it's both reasonable, rational and necessary to excoriate them, because they seek to enslave everyone to their service.

Christianity has no such pretensions.

Therefore, your argument is a red herring.

[Seth]

Christianity can only exist inside a Christian. It is a false dicotomy to say you can hate one without hating the other. If you hate nazism then you need to direct your hatred at the nazis along with their emblems and so with christianity.

I can't agree with this, for the very simple and self evident reason that I know I don't actually hate Christians, with the exception of a few who have done or justified evil things deliberately in its name. I hate Christianity for the things it has done historically, both by perverting what people believe it is to be human and warping their minds and reason, frustrating the march of rationality and reason when they came close to challenging orthodoxy, the things it has done to human sexuality..I could go on.

Hm. "I hate Christianity for the things it has done..."

Evidently it has escaped your notice that the word "Christianity" is not a sentient creature capable of performing actions. It is a philosophical and religious idea. It has no actual physical existence, so it cannot "do" anything at all. Thus, only people can have "done things historically."

Christianity cannot have "warped" the minds or reason of anyone, it's just an idea. Nor have you described with any specificity how, exactly, the "march of rationality and reason" has been "frustrated," particularly given the advancements of rationality and reason that have taken place simultaneously with Christian religious belief.

Nor do you describe what Christianity has "done" to "human sexuality" that you object to.

There are very few people I actually hate in this world.

According to your original statement, and a rational analysis of this one, you evidently hate almost half the population of the planet.

Incidentally I have a cousin who I 'almost' hate. He is a lay preacher and I try to avoid him at all costs. In fact I have not seen him in ten years. He is a total religious nut. He visited my parents a few days ago following my dad's operation. My dad has very bad arthritis in his hip which can make life pretty miserable for him and at 86 they won't operate. Anyway my cousin has mild arthritis in his arm from playing rugby when he was younger. My dad asked him how he treats it. His reply was 'I give a little prayer to god and it goes'.

The twat.

Sounds like jealousy to me. Do you have any reason to believe that his arthritis is not relieved by prayer? Ever hear of the "placebo effect?"

[Seth]

Christianity can only exist inside a Christian. It is a false dicotomy to say you can hate one without hating the other. If you hate nazism then you need to direct your hatred at the nazis along with their emblems and so with christianity.

I can't agree with this, for the very simple and self evident reason that I know I don't actually hate Christians, with the exception of a few who have done or justified evil things deliberately in its name. I hate Christianity for the things it has done historically, both by perverting what people believe it is to be human and warping their minds and reason, frustrating the march of rationality and reason when they came close to challenging orthodoxy, the things it has done to human sexuality..I could go on.

There are very few people I actually hate in this world.

Incidentally I have a cousin who I 'almost' hate. He is a lay preacher and I try to avoid him at all costs. In fact I have not seen him in ten years. He is a total religious nut. He visited my parents a few days ago following my dad's operation. My dad has very bad arthritis in his hip which can make life pretty miserable for him and at 86 they won't operate. Anyway my cousin has mild arthritis in his arm from playing rugby when he was younger. My dad asked him how he treats it. His reply was 'I give a little prayer to god and it goes'.

The twat.

'I give a little prayer to god and it goes' that's a new way of putting it, he'll be needing glasses.

If I had been there I would have asked why he has to repeat the prayer. Surely a big strong god like that could make it go away for keeps!

Probably. But perhaps God has something else in mind for him, and chooses not to make it go away for keeps. You might also want to note the incidence of "miraculous" permanent cures of medical conditions claimed by Christians that modern medical science cannot explain before you get too smug.

[Robert_S]

Some Christians are humble people who make time to help out those in need.

Other Christians are tools of a giant metaphysical protection racket.

On the other hand, some are a bit of both.

[sandinista]

I have decided that I actively hate this religion. I hate all religions of course, with perhaps the grudging exception of Buddhism, but Christianity has that thing in common with Islam, that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned. The evil that has been done in its name is appalling and beyond description. The perfectly natural human impulses one has to reject to be a Christian is a disgrace.

It is fucking horrible and anti-human.

Soz - been on my mind today.

Just showing my atheist credentials...

I agree 100%

[Feck]

No No you are wrong we should be tolerant of Religion it's commies socialists and liberals we should hate ...... Seth told me (well At least I thought it was Seth... it was a disembodied voice from under a bridge that's Seth right ? )

[egbert]

Various people, please note the title of the thread.

Rum hates christianity, not necessarily christians.

Rather important difference in semantics...

Not hardly. The title of the thread does not accurately reflect Rum's actual argument. What Rum actually said was:

Christianity has that thing in common with Islam, that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned. The evil that has been done in its name is appalling and beyond description.

This is, first and foremost, a blatant and mendacious mis-stating of Christian religious belief.

Second, the reference in the second sentence is directly aimed at persons, not the ideology.

Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Rum hates not only the ideology that he THINKS represents Christianity, but also that he hates those persons identifying themselves as Christians who have done "evil" according to his entirely absent definition of the word.

Like those homosexuals God thinks are an abomination....

[Hermit]

it is reasonable to conclude that Rum hates not only the ideology that he THINKS represents Christianity, but also that he hates those persons identifying themselves as Christians

On the contrary. It is actually possible to hate the sin and love the sinner, so to speak.

[MrJonno]

Most christians are actually quite nice despite their religion, they reject the nasty bullshit and only keep the quite nice but still bullshit bits. How anyone could hate the Church of England is beyond me, laugh at it sure but hate it?.

Now libertarianism thats a death cult that is evil to its very core, I certainly have more in common with someone who goes to a C of E service every weekend than someone who lives on planet Libertarian and I know who I would rather go down the pub with

[Aos Si]

I actually don't although JWs piss me off. Old gits.