Dawkins, you got some 'splaining to do....

[Hermit]

That should have been the end of the thread. Perhaps the christian god, if he actually exists in the first place, is indeed a fucking bastard, but that is not what 99% of his followers think. They keep seeing every baby they claim was saved through god's miraculous intervention while ignoring the deaths of millions of others that died of some disease or other before they reach their first birthday. If their god is so loving and generous to have wrought a miracle in order to save the odd baby here and there, why has he not miraculously saved them all?

[Rum]

[Seth]

Because you're challenging the veracity of the report.

I'm pointing out the other possible explanations, rather than divine intervention.

And I'm not disagreeing with you.

Over here in the UK, we have a whole industry based on doctors getting it wrong.
There are lawyers who never do anything else, but pursue doctors who got it wrong.
I realise that America probably doesn't have such a litigation culture, so I suppose you would be unaware that mistakes can actually happen in the field of medicine.

Now all you have to do is show that the incident was a medical mistake.

[Seth]

He still doesn't get basic logic and rational inquiry. The person making the claim is required to provide proof. You (via this story) are claiming that god dunnit. Where's your proof, troll?

I made no claim at all. I simply related a story about a series of events that occurred. I drew no conclusions and made no claims. It is you who is making claims about the events, therefore it is up to you to prove your claims.

Umm, no we're not (making claims). The story, that you posted, claimed goddunnit. Simple logic and rational inquiry, Seth. You should try and learn about it some day.

Actually, the mother attributed it to a miracle, not the article. The article cited relevant medical quotes and information and the mother's opinion on the events.

According to the article there is no medical explanation for the child's recovery. As Rum points out there are more than a few explanations for these events, one of which is divine intervention. I'm merely asking you to prove YOUR claim that God did not do it by showing, to your own standards of scientific accuracy, how it happened. If you can't do so, then a miracle from God remains a valid option, despite your skepticism.

[Seth]

To quote one who many of us here are fans 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'. (Often attributed to Hitchens, but originally from Carl Sagan).

No claim is being made by me. I'm simply relating an unusual situation that appears to have stumped medical science. If God did not do it, then what did?

[Seth]

That should have been the end of the thread. Perhaps the christian god, if he actually exists in the first place, is indeed a fucking bastard, but that is not what 99% of his followers think. They keep seeing every baby they claim was saved through god's miraculous intervention while ignoring the deaths of millions of others that died of some disease or other before they reach their first birthday. If their god is so loving and generous to have wrought a miracle in order to save the odd baby here and there, why has he not miraculously saved them all?

That's the mystery of God, they say. Perhaps God has other plans that we puny humans aren't aware of. And what exactly would the possibly mistaken beliefs about God on the part of believers have to do with the actual existence or abilities of God?

[Seth]

hawkgod.jpg

Maybe Hawking is still alive because God keeps him that way. Most people with his disease die relatively young. Perhaps Hawking is a miracle for even existing.

I dunno, but none of this says anything at all about the existence or non-existence of God.

[pErvinalia]

He still doesn't get basic logic and rational inquiry. The person making the claim is required to provide proof. You (via this story) are claiming that god dunnit. Where's your proof, troll?

I made no claim at all. I simply related a story about a series of events that occurred. I drew no conclusions and made no claims. It is you who is making claims about the events, therefore it is up to you to prove your claims.

Umm, no we're not (making claims). The story, that you posted, claimed goddunnit. Simple logic and rational inquiry, Seth. You should try and learn about it some day.

Actually, the mother attributed it to a miracle, not the article. The article cited relevant medical quotes and information and the mother's opinion on the events.

According to the article there is no medical explanation for the child's recovery. As Rum points out there are more than a few explanations for these events, one of which is divine intervention. I'm merely asking you to prove YOUR claim that God did not do it by showing, to your own standards of scientific accuracy, how it happened. If you can't do so, then a miracle from God remains a valid option, despite your skepticism.

The kid breathed by the same mechanism that you or I breathed. There is no mystery here, despite you desperately wanting there to be one.

[piscator]

That should have been the end of the thread. Perhaps the christian god, if he actually exists in the first place, is indeed a fucking bastard, but that is not what 99% of his followers think. They keep seeing every baby they claim was saved through god's miraculous intervention while ignoring the deaths of millions of others that died of some disease or other before they reach their first birthday. If their god is so loving and generous to have wrought a miracle in order to save the odd baby here and there, why has he not miraculously saved them all?

That's the mystery of God, they say. Perhaps God has other plans that we puny humans aren't aware of.

Of course there's no way to know the Mind of God. But it is a fact that God knew that child would suffer more and longer than Jesus before He ever put her here, so if you're going to celebrate the "miracle!" of the child feeling better, you should celebrate the misery of the harlequin ichthyosis, leprosy, or brainworms God Himself made for the child.

And what exactly would the possibly mistaken beliefs about God on the part of believers have to do with the actual existence or abilities of God?

Nothing. Other than the exact same thing could be said for the various sects of Apollo or Dionysus. So, just because a priest carves the heart out of a child in observance of Quetz says nothing really about the nonsubjective existence of Quetz from an imaginary Quetzl-like frame. And so even bringing it up the way you do constitutes nonsequitur until you establish the existence of whatever god you want to establish, or make it clear that you're discussing hypotheticals and not the Real Quetzl.

One thing though, if leprosy is God's Choice for a person, and thus God's Will, and thus the exact path God has chosen for "the victims", why don't they seem to enjoy it? They are on the exact path to True Happiness, yet they seem miserable. Is this another Mystery made for me to ponder?

[Seth]

He still doesn't get basic logic and rational inquiry. The person making the claim is required to provide proof. You (via this story) are claiming that god dunnit. Where's your proof, troll?

I made no claim at all. I simply related a story about a series of events that occurred. I drew no conclusions and made no claims. It is you who is making claims about the events, therefore it is up to you to prove your claims.

Umm, no we're not (making claims). The story, that you posted, claimed goddunnit. Simple logic and rational inquiry, Seth. You should try and learn about it some day.

Actually, the mother attributed it to a miracle, not the article. The article cited relevant medical quotes and information and the mother's opinion on the events.

According to the article there is no medical explanation for the child's recovery. As Rum points out there are more than a few explanations for these events, one of which is divine intervention. I'm merely asking you to prove YOUR claim that God did not do it by showing, to your own standards of scientific accuracy, how it happened. If you can't do so, then a miracle from God remains a valid option, despite your skepticism.

The kid breathed by the same mechanism that you or I breathed.

Prove it.

[piscator]

He did. To me. Moving on, if you want to assert and asseverate it was a big stinkin mericle the kid breathed, you have to rule out the normal mechanisms that every other kid uses to breathe. It's well established how people breathe, so if you're going to claim something different, then the onus is in uranus, and the ball is in your hand to dew the provin' here.

[pErvinalia]

I made no claim at all. I simply related a story about a series of events that occurred. I drew no conclusions and made no claims. It is you who is making claims about the events, therefore it is up to you to prove your claims.

Umm, no we're not (making claims). The story, that you posted, claimed goddunnit. Simple logic and rational inquiry, Seth. You should try and learn about it some day.

Actually, the mother attributed it to a miracle, not the article. The article cited relevant medical quotes and information and the mother's opinion on the events.

According to the article there is no medical explanation for the child's recovery. As Rum points out there are more than a few explanations for these events, one of which is divine intervention. I'm merely asking you to prove YOUR claim that God did not do it by showing, to your own standards of scientific accuracy, how it happened. If you can't do so, then a miracle from God remains a valid option, despite your skepticism.

The kid breathed by the same mechanism that you or I breathed.

Prove it.

I don't have to prove anything. Same as I don't have to prove that gravity causes water to run downhills. It's already been proved.

[JimC]

Miracles can only be asserted when there is no other normal mechanism which has a proven chance of causing the phenomenon. Cases of breathing re-starting have been observed, with no-one saying they are miracles.

No cases of poor old amputees regrowing their limbs have ever been observed.

QED...

[Animavore]

I don't get why Dawkins has explaining to to. As far as I know he's not a medical doctor.

[Animavore]

To quote one who many of us here are fans 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'. (Often attributed to Hitchens, but originally from Carl Sagan).

No claim is being made by me. I'm simply relating an unusual situation that appears to have stumped medical science. If God did not do it, then what did?

I don't find it that unusual at all. Shit happens.