Catholic Chruch won't let me leave.

[Audley Strange]

Perhaps a "We Renounce Catholicism." petition might help? Would've worked for Thomas More.

[Svartalf]

It has a material impact.

Over 95% of schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church.

These are 100% state funded, which means that my taxes are handed over to that church.

Those schools are permitted to deny my children entrance, on the basis that I am an atheist.

This position is shored up in a number of ways, but largely by reference to a spurious number of Catholics in this country.

It is changing, and changing quickly, but not quickly enough.

Dunno, the Christian Brothers school I worked at 25 years ago took in protestant kids, and I doubt they'd have refused atheist's kids.

[Hermit]

Excommunication doesn't matter. Even when excommunicated, the church still considers you to be Catholic. You're just, temporarily out of God's grace, and so not allowed to take part in the sacraments.

But you'll still be in the numbers.

Not, if you go by the census that takes place every five years. I think those numbers are more important than the ones the catholic church may or may not assert. Unfortunately, 3.5 of the 3.9 million Irish declared themselves (and their children) to be of the catholic christian faith in the 2011 census. Of course most of them are perhaps only nominally catholic, but those are the figures the catatonic chruch can more or less rightfully cite.

[klr]

Excommunication doesn't matter. Even when excommunicated, the church still considers you to be Catholic. You're just, temporarily out of God's grace, and so not allowed to take part in the sacraments.

But you'll still be in the numbers.

Not, if you go by the census that takes place every five years. I think those numbers are more important than the ones the catholic church may or may not assert. Unfortunately, 3.5 of the 3.9 million Irish declared themselves (and their children) to be of the catholic christian faith in the 2011 census. Of course most of them are perhaps only nominally catholic, but those are the figures the catatonic chruch can more or less rightfully cite.

... whilst at the same time bewailing the fact that attendance at Sunday mass is at an all time low.

[mistermack]

... whilst at the same time bewailing the fact that attendance at Sunday mass is at an all time low.

They could provide the remaining church-goers with step ladders. That would raise the attendance levels.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

It shouldn't be too hard to make them throw you out. Just turn up during a mass and publicly (and loudly) denounce the whole ceremony as a sham and a fraud. Call the priest a paedo. Spit on the cross. And announce that you will repeat these acts every Sunday (at a different church each time) until the catlick chruch agrees to remove your name from their list of suckers.

Should be lulz if nothing else.

[klr]

It shouldn't be too hard to make them throw you out. Just turn up during a mass and publicly (and loudly) denounce the whole ceremony as a sham and a fraud. Call the priest a paedo. Spit on the cross. And announce that you will repeat these acts every Sunday (at a different church each time) until the catlick chruch agrees to remove your name from their list of suckers.

Should be lulz if nothing else.

But ... but ... he'd have to get up at a respectable hour on Sunday morning. That's too much like hard work.

[Seth]

Oh for fuck's sake, just stand up on your hind legs and walk out of the church. If you're all that obsessed, send your priest a letter telling him you are no longer a Catholic and then forget about it.

Are you afraid the Inquisition is going to come looking for you or something?

Where did anyone get the silly idea that the Catholic church is under any obligation whatsoever to amend their private internal documents?

You might as well ask the Mormons to "unbaptize" you.

Sheesh.

You missed his main point, which is the church counts still him and others in a similar position amongst the numbers of their flock, thus falsely claiming a higher membership than is the case.

So what? Who cares? Big deal! Get over it....

It has a material impact.

Over 95% of schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church.

So go to one of the other 5%.

These are 100% state funded, which means that my taxes are handed over to that church.

What, you don't like democracy now? That's the way the Irish people want it isn't it?

Those schools are permitted to deny my children entrance, on the basis that I am an atheist.

Then don't be an atheist. Or send your children to a different school. Or move somewhere else.

This position is shored up in a number of ways, but largely by reference to a spurious number of Catholics in this country.

Strange. Last I heard one didn't have to be Catholic to vote in Ireland. That means that the "democratic process" has determined that Ireland is to be a Catholic nation. If you don't like that, you can always go somewhere else. Lots of Irish people do that...emigrate, don't you know.

It is changing, and changing quickly, but not quickly enough.

Why should it change at all? You like social democracy right? Well, welcome to democracy, which you're getting good and hard.

[Animavore]

Seth you're full of shit. Don't try tell me you'd just accept it if you were made a member of a group you were philosophically and morally opposed to like, say, The Communist Party, and that group was using its artificially boosted figures to gain political clout. And don't even think of lying to me and saying if Communism started taking over America you would just emigrate. In fact I specifically remember you saying you would resort to violent, militant force.

[Seth]

Seth you're full of shit.

What's this? You can dish it out but you can't take it? How hypocritical of you.

Don't try tell me you'd just accept it if you were made a member of a group you were philosophically and morally opposed to like, say, The Communist Party, and that group was using its artificially boosted figures to gain political clout. And don't even think of lying to me and saying if Communism started taking over America you would just emigrate. In fact I specifically remember you saying you would resort to violent, militant force.

Ah, but you see the difference between you and I is that I'm ethically, morally, philosophically and politically consistent in my argumentation. You are not.

You cannot support socialism, democratic or otherwise and then complain when the majority does something you don't like and remain ethically, morally, philosophically or politically consistent. That's the conundrum that socialists face, and the gross hypocrisy they engage in at nearly every turn.

You state a perfect example of the fallacy of Special Pleading:

Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Person A accepts standard(s) S and applies them to others in circumtance(s) C.
Person A is in circumstance(s) C.
Therefore A is exempt from S.

The person committing Special Pleading is claiming that he is exempt from certain principles or standards yet he provides no good reason for his exemption.

Please explain why you, an advocate of democratic socialism, should be exempt from the rules created by the democratic majority in Ireland.

While you bluster and stammer trying to concoct some other lame argument, you might reflect on Libertarian philosophy, which does not accept as an a priori assumption the notion that the individual is necessarily or properly subservient to and the chattel of the collective and therefore owes a duty of obedience to the collective's decisions.

That's why I can be logically and rationally consistent in arguing against Marxism in the United States but you cannot be logically or rationally consistent in arguing against Catholicism in Ireland.

[Animavore]

As for schools, talks and proposals are under way to "reduce the dominance of the Catholic Church in primary education". And given the current political climate and lack of respect for the church any more it will likely come to fruition.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pa ... 04218.html

[Animavore]

What's this? You can dish it out but you can't take it? How hypocritical of you.

I haven't dished anything. The sulky smiley in my OP clearly indicated a certain tongue-in-cheek to my post. I'm not near as bothered as you think. Looks like you were talking to that intolerant Atheist caricature in your head again.

Ah, but you see the difference between you and I is that I'm ethically, morally, philosophically and politically consistent in my argumentation. You are not.

You cannot support socialism, democratic or otherwise and then complain when the majority does something you don't like and remain ethically, morally, philosophically or politically consistent. That's the conundrum that socialists face, and the gross hypocrisy they engage in at nearly every turn.

You state a perfect example of the fallacy of Special Pleading:

When have I ever said I support Socialism?

Looks like you're speaking to a person in your head again.

[Seth]

What's this? You can dish it out but you can't take it? How hypocritical of you.

I haven't dished anything. The sulky smiley in my OP clearly indicated a certain tongue-in-cheek to my post. I'm not near as bothered as you think. Looks like you were talking to that intolerant Atheist caricature in your head again.

As I said previously, you can dish it out but you can't take it.

Ah, but you see the difference between you and I is that I'm ethically, morally, philosophically and politically consistent in my argumentation. You are not.

You cannot support socialism, democratic or otherwise and then complain when the majority does something you don't like and remain ethically, morally, philosophically or politically consistent. That's the conundrum that socialists face, and the gross hypocrisy they engage in at nearly every turn.

You state a perfect example of the fallacy of Special Pleading:

When have I ever said I support Socialism?

Looks like you're speaking to a person in your head again.

Please excuse me if I've mischaracterized your political position. You see, I only know of perhaps two other non-socialists on this entire forum, and only one of them is firmly non-socialist in his argumentation.

Quite literally everyone else who participates in such discussions is clearly and unrepentantly socialist in political leaning.

So, if that doesn't apply to you, I apologize. You may view my rebuttal as a generalized anti-socialist jab at the rampant hypocrisy of the vast majority of members here.

The point, obviously, is that atheistic socialists are generally quite hypocritical in their argumentation because they advocate tyranny of the majority...unless it happens to be a religious majority like Catholics or perhaps Muslims. At that point all their socialist ethics go straight out the window and they fall back on their own anti-theistic religious beliefs when excoriating theistic religious majorities.

[Animavore]

As I said previously, you can dish it out but you can't take it.

I think you're reading anger or consternation in my post instead of whimsy and joviality.

So, if that doesn't apply to you, I apologize.

's alright.

[Tero]

Send them a bill for your services. €10 000 a year for counting you as Catholic.