85 priests accused of abuse...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I went to a Catholic church when I was little and I was never molested

How do you think I feel? I went to Catholic school, church and boy scouts and I wasn't molested.
I would've become an altar boy too but unfortunately my parents knew what the scumbags are like and wouldn't let me get too involved.
Cock blockers

The vast, overwhelming majority of all Catholic children in history have NOT been molested by a priest, a fact that seems to escape just about everyone.

Oh good. That makes it all right, then.

Does it? I certainly don't think so. I'm surprised you do.

However, it's always worth pointing out that the number of "scumbags" found in the Catholic priesthood is less than 1 percent, while the percentage of "scumbags" in public schools appears to be somewhat larger, given the five million or so kids a year that they molest. It's always useful to put these things in perspective, particularly when some bigot makes false claims about all priests based on the crimes of a few.

One percent? The whole system supports the pedos. It's 100% when you include aiding and abetting.

[Seth]

If the goal is to destroy religion and the powerful organizations that promote it, then conflating the evil actions of a few to tar the entire organization is a valid tactic. Dishonest, but valid.

Depends on how you define "valid." If the sole metric is "the ends justify the means" I suppose you're right. If there are any morals or ethics at all involved, it's a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic, not a valid one.

[Seth]

One percent? The whole system supports the pedos. It's 100% when you include aiding and abetting.

That's just a lie, and you know it.

[Seth]

I went to a Catholic church when I was little and I was never molested

How do you think I feel? I went to Catholic school, church and boy scouts and I wasn't molested.
I would've become an altar boy too but unfortunately my parents knew what the scumbags are like and wouldn't let me get too involved.
Cock blockers

The vast, overwhelming majority of all Catholic children in history have NOT been molested by a priest, a fact that seems to escape just about everyone.

Oh good. That makes it all right, then.

Screw the victims, they're in the minority. Seth thinks like this.

Do you want to go there again? I think I'll report this post before taking you on again and see if the Mods will do their jobs.

[amused]

If the goal is to destroy religion and the powerful organizations that promote it, then conflating the evil actions of a few to tar the entire organization is a valid tactic. Dishonest, but valid.

Depends on how you define "valid." If the sole metric is "the ends justify the means" I suppose you're right. If there are any morals or ethics at all involved, it's a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic, not a valid one.

Which depends on which side you are on. The religious right uses homosexual pedophiles to damn all homosexuals and fight gay marriage. The religious right may claim the ends justify the means, but it sure looks like a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic to the other side.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One percent? The whole system supports the pedos. It's 100% when you include aiding and abetting.

That's just a lie, and you know it.

Prove it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Do you want to go there again? I think I'll report this post before taking you on again and see if the Mods will do their jobs.

Not my fault you support the abusive system.

[Seth]

If the goal is to destroy religion and the powerful organizations that promote it, then conflating the evil actions of a few to tar the entire organization is a valid tactic. Dishonest, but valid.

Depends on how you define "valid." If the sole metric is "the ends justify the means" I suppose you're right. If there are any morals or ethics at all involved, it's a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic, not a valid one.

Which depends on which side you are on. The religious right uses homosexual pedophiles to damn all homosexuals and fight gay marriage.

Yes, they do, and it's just as unethical and immoral coming from them as it is coming from anyone else.

The religious right may claim the ends justify the means, but it sure looks like a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic to the other side.

I agree. Religious people have every right to oppose both homosexuality and gay marriage as immoral and socially and politically undesirable, but they are wrong to conflate homosexual pedophiles with adult, consenting homosexual non-pedophiles, and it's not a legitimate argument against gay marriage.

This does not, however, create an occasion for the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy to be accepted as valid.

[Seth]

One percent? The whole system supports the pedos. It's 100% when you include aiding and abetting.

That's just a lie, and you know it.

Prove it.

My sister and her family, who are Catholics, are outraged at sex abuse by priests and do not support them. Neither does the priest at their church, nor the priest at their previous church, nor does the former Archbishop of Denver, Archbishop Chaput, which I know because I personally interviewed him on the subject some years ago.

Therefore, you are wrong, and not just wrong, you are knowingly lying (because you cannot hope to sustain the allegation that "100%" of Catholics "aid and abet" pedophile priests). QED.

[Seth]

Do you want to go there again? I think I'll report this post before taking you on again and see if the Mods will do their jobs.

Not my fault you support the abusive system.

Liar.

[amused]

If the goal is to destroy religion and the powerful organizations that promote it, then conflating the evil actions of a few to tar the entire organization is a valid tactic. Dishonest, but valid.

Depends on how you define "valid." If the sole metric is "the ends justify the means" I suppose you're right. If there are any morals or ethics at all involved, it's a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic, not a valid one.

Which depends on which side you are on. The religious right uses homosexual pedophiles to damn all homosexuals and fight gay marriage.

Yes, they do, and it's just as unethical and immoral coming from them as it is coming from anyone else.

The religious right may claim the ends justify the means, but it sure looks like a disgusting, immoral and unethical tactic to the other side.

I agree. Religious people have every right to oppose both homosexuality and gay marriage as immoral and socially and politically undesirable, but they are wrong to conflate homosexual pedophiles with adult, consenting homosexual non-pedophiles, and it's not a legitimate argument against gay marriage.

This does not, however, create an occasion for the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy to be accepted as valid.

True, but all sides seem to play this game a lot. Not naming names, but a poster here was frequently using the term Marxist-Progressives as a way to tar all progressives with Marxism. Being a fiscal conservative but social progressive, I found the association disgusting, immoral, and unethical. But accept it as part of the game.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One percent? The whole system supports the pedos. It's 100% when you include aiding and abetting.

That's just a lie, and you know it.

Prove it.

My sister and her family, who are Catholics, are outraged at sex abuse by priests and do not support them. Neither does the priest at their church, nor the priest at their previous church, nor does the former Archbishop of Denver, Archbishop Chaput, which I know because I personally interviewed him on the subject some years ago.

Therefore, you are wrong, and not just wrong, you are knowingly lying (because you cannot hope to sustain the allegation that "100%" of Catholics "aid and abet" pedophile priests). QED.

You still haven't proven the system doesn't aid and abet pedos. We know the church shuffles them around to avoid exposure. The hierarchy protects pedos, and for good reason, there's none who can stand that light.

[Geoff]

However, it's always worth pointing out that the number of "scumbags" found in the Catholic priesthood is less than 1 percent...

From the 2011 Cloyne report http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Cloyne_Rp ... ne_Rpt.pdf

Of the 163 clerics listed in the Diocese of Cloyne Diocesan Directory for 1996, there have been allegations made or concerns expressed about 12 (7.6%).

(Note that 1996 is when the "Framework Document" was implemented, in other words, the Cloyne Report addresses the period after the new safeguards were put in place in Ireland)

Regarding the Vatican's response to the 1996 Framework document:

The reaction of the Vatican to the Framework Document was entirely unhelpful to any bishop who wanted to implement the agreed procedures (see
Chapter 4). The Congregation for the Clergy told the bishops of Ireland that the document was “not an official document of the Episcopal Conference but
merely a study document”. The Congregation further stated that it contained:
“procedures and dispositions which appear contrary to canonical discipline and which, if applied, could invalidate the acts of the same
Bishops who are attempting to put a stop to these problems. If such procedures were to be followed by the Bishops and there were cases
of eventual hierarchical recourse lodged at the Holy See, the results could be highly embarrassing and detrimental to those same Diocesan
authorities.

(my bold)

[Seth]

However, it's always worth pointing out that the number of "scumbags" found in the Catholic priesthood is less than 1 percent...

From the 2011 Cloyne report http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Cloyne_Rp ... ne_Rpt.pdf

Of the 163 clerics listed in the Diocese of Cloyne Diocesan Directory for 1996, there have been allegations made or concerns expressed about 12 (7.6%).

How many of the allegations or complaints were actually sustained? As I said, anyone can make an allegation, and with millions of dollars in potential settlements at stake, there is plenty of motive for false allegations to be made. I'm not much surprised however that the rate might be higher in Ireland.

(Note that 1996 is when the "Framework Document" was implemented, in other words, the Cloyne Report addresses the period after the new safeguards were put in place in Ireland)

Regarding the Vatican's response to the 1996 Framework document:

The reaction of the Vatican to the Framework Document was entirely unhelpful to any bishop who wanted to implement the agreed procedures (see
Chapter 4). The Congregation for the Clergy told the bishops of Ireland that the document was “not an official document of the Episcopal Conference but
merely a study document”. The Congregation further stated that it contained:
“procedures and dispositions which appear contrary to canonical discipline and which, if applied, could invalidate the acts of the same
Bishops who are attempting to put a stop to these problems. If such procedures were to be followed by the Bishops and there were cases
of eventual hierarchical recourse lodged at the Holy See, the results could be highly embarrassing and detrimental to those same Diocesan
authorities.

(my bold)

[/quote]

I addressed this mischaracterization in another thread. The Pope expressly ordered the Irish Bishops to "continue to cooperate with the civil authorities" as regards criminal allegations. The proposal by the Irish Bishops was taken under consideration by the Vatican and the Irish Bishops were told that they could not short-cut the protocols for approving such matters and that the document was a study document, and that they were not to act on it until formal direction from the Vatican was provided. I don't know the details of the eventual policies put in place, but the church has made substantial changes in how it screens applicants to the seminary, supervises priests, supervises children in churches, and screens lay persons who are involved with children at church-sponsored activities. I suspect that the proposal from the Irish Bishops was duly considered and the acceptable parts folded in to Vatican policy.

[Animavore]

The Irish Taoiseach on the Cloyne report.



Bigotted Catholics