Why don't agnostics pray?

[Trolldor]

but without definite proof of absence, and given the weird nature of the subject, concluding definitely in the non existence of the divine is as large a leap of faith as worshipping some magic man from the sky.

The only logical solution is to admit you don't know, and most likely won't ever know, if it's even possible to have definite knowledge (positive or negative) on the matter.
and of course that still frees you to act as if it didn't exist since it doesn't ever factor in the equation of actions and consequences.

Definite proof of absence? And what what tangible, observable, examinable evidence of non-existance look like?

Seems to me it'd look a lot like nothing, and we have plenty of that around.

[Ele]

I don't pray simply because I don't worship anything or anyone. But I have communicated with dead people. Life on Earth is an illusion and if some people want to believe in rational and irrational illusions, it's no care of mine. There's no middle ground or hedging of bets for me. There's just pure skepticism of others' purported understanding of reality and a sense of reassurance in not knowing anything. And I'm still too young to commit myself to any rational or irrational fantasy realities just yet.... gotta be careful what you wish for in case you wish it true.

Back up a bit here. What?

Well, it was more like they were trying to communicate with me but not in words. Because I have a human brain I rationally personified them with a human appearance and put words around their expressions. Because that is how the mind tries to make sense of the inexplicable.

I think of deities as supernatural political leaders of sorts, trying to raise ranks from the diverse assortment of vulnerable and impressionable souls wandering aimlessly in mortal limbo. They may exist but they are not my leaders and I don't follow them. So there is nothing around here for me to pray to. And when I can remember where I left the keys to my spaceship I am out of here.

Anyway, people can change their minds in the course of a day and a lifetime. They could wake up an atheist and go to sleep an agnostic.

[JimC]

Because deep down they are atheists, but don't use that label because they think it sounds militant, extreme and eccentric...

[hackenslash]

It always seems to me that 'agnostic' in the sense that most people apply it is totally redundant. Can anybody really claim to know whether or not a deity exists? Of course not. So in that sense everybody is agnostic. I prefer to define agnostic as a position concerning the possibility of knowledge, not the possession thereof. In that light, it isn't possible to simply be agnostic, but it must be accompanied with a position on the existence of a deity, even if that position is no position at all.

I call myself a gnostic anti-theist. Gnostic in the sense that, if a deity exists, and certainly an interventionist deity, that knowledge is possible through the evidence its interactions with the universe must necessarily leave behind. Anti-theist in the sense that I am of the opinion that we would be much better off without the idea of a deity, regardless of whether one actually exists or not. That doesn't mean that I am opposed to theists, but opposed to theism.

[Trolldor]

Well, it was more like they were trying to communicate with me but not in words.

That was gas, not communication. Dead bodies tend not to communicate.

[RuleBritannia]

Anyway, people can change their minds in the course of a day and a lifetime. They could wake up an atheist and go to sleep an agnostic.

That's like saying "I woke up rich and went to bed hungry". They're not mutually exclusive, if you're an atheist you have to be either an agnostic or gnostic at the same time. If you're an agnostic you have to be either a theist or atheist at the same time.

"Theist" and "atheist" are mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive, you can not be in both categories, but you have to be in one of them.

[Ele]

Well, it was more like they were trying to communicate with me but not in words.

That was gas, not communication. Dead bodies tend not to communicate.

I said people, not bodies. They were disembodied.

I don't dig up dead bodies

Taking every sentence completely literally is a sign of a faulty frontal lobe, which can be caused by excessive alcohol consumption. But of course my sensitivity to hearing the voices of dead people could also be..... or it's just an advanced consequence of natural selection... it comes in very handy, yanno, as it aids me in my survival. Much like my ESP.

[Twiglet]

Anyway, people can change their minds in the course of a day and a lifetime. They could wake up an atheist and go to sleep an agnostic.

That's like saying "I woke up rich and went to bed hungry". They're not mutually exclusive, if you're an atheist you have to be either an agnostic or gnostic at the same time. If you're an agnostic you have to be either a theist or atheist at the same time.

"Theist" and "atheist" are mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive, you can not be in both categories, but you have to be in one of them.

However, belief in ones ability to communicate with the dead does not require belief in a God, and nor does belief in a collective consciousness, or seeing the world as universal non-localised resonant energy. By your definition such belief systems would have to be categorised as "atheist" as they do not acknowledge deities. Are you comfortable and happy for such belief systems to be described as atheist?

[leo-rcc]

However, belief in ones ability to communicate with the dead does not require belief in a God, and nor does belief in a collective consciousness, or seeing the world as universal non-localised resonant energy. By your definition such belief systems would have to be categorised as "atheist" as they do not acknowledge deities. Are you comfortable and happy for such belief systems to be described as atheist?

I have no problem with that. Raelians for example are atheists even though I have nothing else in common with their beliefs.

[Trolldor]

Well, it was more like they were trying to communicate with me but not in words.

That was gas, not communication. Dead bodies tend not to communicate.

I said people, not bodies. They were disembodied.

I don't dig up dead bodies

Taking every sentence completely literally is a sign of a faulty frontal lobe, which can be caused by excessive alcohol consumption. But of course my sensitivity to hearing the voices of dead people could also be..... or it's just an advanced consequence of natural selection... it comes in very handy, yanno, as it aids me in my survival. Much like my ESP.

You've seriously got to be taking the piss...

Also, my frontal lobe is working perfectly thank you very much. Ain't easy to communicate without a voice box, and nobody dead or alive has ever (successfully) shown telepathy as an ability.

[Ele]

Ain't easy to communicate without a voice box, and nobody dead or alive has ever (successfully) shown telepathy as an ability.

How would you possibly know that without being privy to the thoughts and experiences of 6 billion living souls, not to mention all the dead ones?

[leo-rcc]

Ain't easy to communicate without a voice box, and nobody dead or alive has ever (successfully) shown telepathy as an ability.

How would you possibly know that without being privy to the thoughts and experiences of 6 billion living souls, not to mention all the dead ones?

There is a million dollars waiting to prove us wrong.

[Trolldor]

Ain't easy to communicate without a voice box, and nobody dead or alive has ever (successfully) shown telepathy as an ability.

How would you possibly know that without being privy to the thoughts and experiences of 6 billion living souls, not to mention all the dead ones?

Well, I'm waiting for evidence, and there is none. So again, nobody dead or alive has ever successfully shown telepathy as an ability. If they had we'd have heard about it, after all we know Caesar fucked a king and that someone in Pompeii gave a now dead woman the greatest night of their soon-to-be-over life.

[Animavore]

Praying is the most useless, useless thing ever.
You may as well flap your arms about a camp fire in the hope rain will be attracted to your position.
I remember even as a kid after confession being told to say X amount of Hail Marys and Our Fathers and just thinking This is a fucking waste of time. I would just kneel there for 2 or 3 minutes with my hands clasped thinking about whatever it was I used to think about back then. Whatever it was it wasn't reciting meaningless words ad nauseum.
I was about 7-9 and I had to stay in my Granny's. I had to sleep in the spare bed in her room because my brother and sister were in the other room. When my Granny came in she started praying at the end of her bed. I recall thinking This is fucking weird. I was actually a little scared. The way you would be scared of a mad woman.
Nowadays I laugh. When I see Jews in front of a wall shaking like they were having a seizure, or Muslims choreographed bowing, or Christians with their hands in the air with a face on them that it looks like they're imagining they can fly I just laugh my ass off. What a waste of time and energy. It's the type of thing that if someone walked in on you doing there would be an awkward silence for a moment then a change of subject yet when people do it in a group that's ok.

[Pappa]

Praying is the most useless, useless thing ever.

It's not completely useless. It helps the believer feel smug that they've done something to help, when in fact they've done nothing.