Secular values, how would you summarise them?

[Theophilus]

So, does anybody want to argue Marxism and the Russian/Chinese communist states included considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state? Examples of such considerations would be helpful to disabuse me of my current opinion that these regimes were indeed secular.

Yeah, I do. They may have not been explicitly theistic, but both Stalin's Russia and Mao's China adopted religious techniques and developed a cult of the almighty leader. They had more in common with theocracies than secular democracies. Not that there really is such a thing as a secular democracy, although some places are getting closer to it than others.

Remember the definition we're using Virf: "considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state". I would argue that using techniques from religion falls outside of that definition.

[Thinking Aloud]

So, does anybody want to argue Marxism and the Russian/Chinese communist states included considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state? Examples of such considerations would be helpful to disabuse me of my current opinion that these regimes were indeed secular.

Yeah, I do. They may have not been explicitly theistic, but both Stalin's Russia and Mao's China adopted religious techniques and developed a cult of the almighty leader. They had more in common with theocracies than secular democracies. Not that there really is such a thing as a secular democracy, although some places are getting closer to it than others.

Remember the definition we're using Virf: "considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state". I would argue that using techniques from religion falls outside of that definition.

But is this going anywhere, or are we just going to be pedantic over a definition?

[colubridae]

I don't really like the term 'secular'.

Although you will claim quite calmly that you are using the word correctly, there is a definite tendency to use it as a kind of alternative approach of ‘life, government etc.’ to that of theism.

The subtle implication being that theism is a valid alternative. Followed, therefore, by theism is valid.

Any atheist, who discusses secularism in comparison to theism, could be subtly misconstrued by a spectator as accepting theism as valid.

Even a slight lending of credence to religion/theism/deities by discussing it in this way is not useful.

Belief in fairies will never be a valid alternative to secularism, just because they get mentioned in the same sentence.

Call it nitpicking if you like, but backdoor preaching like this makes me need more medicine.

[Theophilus]

But is this going anywhere, or are we just going to be pedantic over a definition?

Good call.

The main point (if I remember correctly ) was whether some form of communal responsibility is or should be part of a secular "ideal" (if there can be one). So, rather than just not doing direct harm, do we (in the absence of religious beliefs) have a responsibility to care for others?

[Thinking Aloud]

But is this going anywhere, or are we just going to be pedantic over a definition?

Good call.

The main point (if I remember correctly ) was whether some form of communal responsibility is or should be part of a secular "ideal" (if there can be one). So, rather than just not doing direct harm, do we have a responsibility to care for others?

Ideally people would look out for others, be it their immediate family / friends / neighbours, or globally. Some people do, some people don't, others will take action when it's needed. I don't think one could ever legislate communal responsibility, but "help your neighbour - one day you might need their help" is a positive thing to do. Comes back down to "do unto others."

[Theophilus]

but "help your neighbour - one day you might need their help" is a positive thing to do"

How about "help your neighbour, even though they'll never be able to help you"? Is it reasonable to expect people to help others knowing that the favour can never be returned?

I suppose I'm wondering here whether "virtue" has any meaning outside of a religious context. I would like to think it does (and I'm sure in practice it does exist), but I'm not sure how it would be formulated.

[colubridae]

I suppose I'm wondering here whether "virtue" has any meaning outside of a religious context. I would like to think it does (and I'm sure in practice it does exist), but I'm not sure how it would be formulated.

Told you. Backdoor preaching.

[Trolldor]

Well, he hasn't clarified what he means at all. Secularism as a philosophy isn't any one thing, it'll change from individual to individual, and secularism as an element is inheretly value-neutral, it's merely the absence of the invocation of religious doctrine.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If you could write write down key values for a totally secular society, what would you write and why?

I'm interested in both the overlap and distinction from my personal Christian values (I won't pretend I can speak for the Christian community as a whole).

Take "religious values" and hose out the god bits.

[Theophilus]

I suppose I'm wondering here whether "virtue" has any meaning outside of a religious context. I would like to think it does (and I'm sure in practice it does exist), but I'm not sure how it would be formulated.

Told you. Backdoor preaching.

I'm sorry you think that. Would it help to say that I have a very high regard for humanist ethics, and that I think such ethics help inform, and contribute to, good religious practice and life?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I suppose I'm wondering here whether "virtue" has any meaning outside of a religious context. I would like to think it does (and I'm sure in practice it does exist), but I'm not sure how it would be formulated.

Told you. Backdoor preaching.

I'm sorry you think that. Would it help to say that I have a very high regard for humanist ethics, and that I think such ethics help inform, and contribute to, good religious practice and life?

I find it absurd that religion is thought to be essential to virtue.

[colubridae]

I suppose I'm wondering here whether "virtue" has any meaning outside of a religious context. I would like to think it does (and I'm sure in practice it does exist), but I'm not sure how it would be formulated.

Theophilis implied:
To be virtuous, you need god.

[colubridae]

I'm sorry you think that. Would it help to say that I have a very high regard for humanist ethics, and that I think such ethics help inform, and contribute to, good religious practice and life?

Nope.
You believe in fairy tales, and you want everyone else to approve.

[Trolldor]

May I waste your time with this post?

Thank you.

[colubridae]

Theo, I'm sure you are a good person.
But you believe in fairy tales.
You are a good person despite that.
You would be a better person without it.
(all other things being equal)