Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Exi2 used alien as a racist term, not yet. Didn't say you did. And just because something is propaganda doesn't automatically make it "bad". That's the point I'm trying to make, a point I didn't think I'd have to explain.

Not bad, but rarely completely honest. I thought I said as much.

You probably did, but that's back to the pejorative again. Any book can be propaganda. The Wizard of Oz is often said to be about Free Silver. Black Beauty is about horse racing. Propagandizing is like speaking. Some speech is good, some speech is bad, and each should be judged on its own merits.

[Jason]

Yes, you're quite good at producing your own propaganda. Of course what matters most is intent. What is yours?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes, you're quite good at producing your own propaganda. Of course what matters most is intent. What is yours?

I am a student of pointlessly pejorative posters. You don't mind if I take notes, do you?

[Tero]

I don't get this Exi and Zilla thing. Did they know from somewhere before? Some history I missed?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I don't get this Exi and Zilla thing. Did they know from somewhere before? Some history I missed?

Never met him that I know of, he's just so much fun.

[Jason]

Yes, you're quite good at producing your own propaganda. Of course what matters most is intent. What is yours?

I am a student of pointlessly pejorative posters. You don't mind if I take notes, do you?

Indeed? I find those who constantly impute motives to other posters without reason fascinating. Shall we dance?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes, you're quite good at producing your own propaganda. Of course what matters most is intent. What is yours?

I am a student of pointlessly pejorative posters. You don't mind if I take notes, do you?

Indeed? I find those who constantly impute motives to other posters without reason fascinating. Shall we dance?

Unreasoning imputations of motives is what fascinates me. I hope to gain insight from you.

[Hermit]

The paranoia over the word "propaganda" can be traced back to Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda or Propagandaministerium days.

The word itself is derived from the Latin propagare,and is still used with its original meaning in matters biological. In 1622 Pope Gregory XV established a committee of cardinals and named it Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, which means "congregation for propagating the faith" in English. From there "propaganda" found its way into common usage, starting in 1718. And yes, the Third Empire was responsible for the negative connotations it is stuck with now. Fortunately, Aufklärung - meaning enlightenment in English - did not suffer a similar fate. Obversely, "reason" is no longer seen as the horrible thing it was during Martin Luther's time.

And now we return to our scheduled program of calling Dawkins a bigot who exploits racism among the unwashed masses with Machiavellian aplomp.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And now we return to our scheduled program of calling Dawkins a bigot who exploits racism among the unwashed masses with Machiavellian aplomp.

You should have spoilered that part.

[Hermit]

I find those who constantly impute motives to other posters without reason fascinating.

That takes the fucking cake. Shall I fix it for you? Yes, I shall. Try

"I find those posters who constantly impute motives to other posters Dawkins without reason fascinating irritating."

[Jason]

Yes, you're quite good at producing your own propaganda. Of course what matters most is intent. What is yours?

I am a student of pointlessly pejorative posters. You don't mind if I take notes, do you?

Indeed? I find those who constantly impute motives to other posters without reason fascinating. Shall we dance?

Unreasoning imputations of motives is what fascinates me. I hope to gain insight from you.

I'm not into trading insults these days, though it seems you're still into it. I'm afraid I'll have to pass.

I just make observations, ask questions, log data for later analysis. Not everything is as simple as it appears and many things take time to collate into something useful. It is a laborious process and sometimes you cannot always be direct. You're free to glean what insight from me that you can if that's what interests you. I think you'll grow bored of it quickly.

I also think this topic has expended itself for my purposes.

I find those who constantly impute motives to other posters without reason fascinating.

That takes the fucking cake. Shall I fix it for you? Yes, I shall. Try

"I find those posters who constantly impute motives to other posters Dawkins without reason fascinating irritating."

Care for a cup of tea?

[amused]

Jump to 16:00 to right to the blast.

[charlou]

I agree 100% with Dawkin's attack on fundamentalist crap being spouted at Islamic (and other) faith schools, and I agree that such criticism must be expressed robustly. I just think his choice of the word "alien" was unwise, and played into the hands of the Imams, who can claim that Dawkins is aiding and abetting racist attitudes.

So you think it was a slip of the tongue?

I don't think he used the word in the way you're saying he did.

And ... on the one hand I agree with Jim that Dawkins should take into account any possible misunderstanding and/or deliberate/disingenuous misrepresentation (which I believe you're engaging in, Exi) and try to phrase his meaning with the least possible chance of ambiguity/exploitation. On the other hand, I think fuckit ... he's not the one misunderstanding or misrepresenting things here. Pragmatically, I would lean towards the former.

[charlou]

Knowing the ambiguity, Dawkins could just have said "alien to science".

Let's face it, Dawkins isn't stupid. Islamophobia has become a substitute for racism in our politically correct times, and Dawkins will squeeze every gram of advantage out of such an ambiguity in order to raise his profile.

So, you don't think he has a point?

There is, of course, a meaning of the word 'alien' other than just 'foreign'. That is 'not of the planet' - i.e. non-human. Given the way that he likes to describe women wearing a niqab as 'bin liners', again dehumanising them to the status of rubbish, I think his latest outburst is entirely consistent with his broadly western-supremacist politics. I'm not surprised you think he has a point.

Ho for fuck sake, are you serious? Women stoned to death for being raped, force to be prisoners in their own homes, can't drive, can't vote, force to wear a tent with a pillar box hole to see but Dawkins is dehumanising them for making a joke. You really are a fucking nutjob Exi5tentialist. The oppression of an entire gender base on a fucking dusty old book full of bullshit, talking rocks and flying horses my arse.

Aye. Blunt and non-equivocating.

[charlou]

Coming late to the party, but:

"Alien" is a choice of words that Dawkins deliberately uses because of its ambiguous meaning. Of course, Dawkins doesn't mean "foreign" or "not English" does he? He must mean the other meaning of alien - "foreign" and "not English". What a charmer.

I took it as "alien to science".

Implicitly applying Occam's Razor, that's what I took it to mean as well. It's the explanation that bests fits the situation. Any claim that he "must" have been using it another sense is groundless. His (subconscious) language simply reflects his exasperation.

Could he have phrased it differently? Of course. Could he have phrased it differently and preserved the sense of disgust about what's happening? Probably, but TBH I couldn't give a proverbial monkeys. It's a very serious problem he's trying to highlight and if this sort of language gets it wider attention, then I won't complain.

Ah yes Occam's Razor, otherwise known as letting an islamophobic bigot off the hook.

Yet to see your response to my question to you about this assertion. You are easily dismissed as a stirrer, lacking honesty and integrity.