Muslim Ban Over Handshake. Whaddayareckon Liberals?

[Exi5tentialist]

While women under capitalism are still not on an equal footing to men, it would be a bit disingenuous to pretend that on average women in Islamic nations are not much worse off than women in secular capitalist ones with a Christian background.

"Islamic nations" were first colonized by the colonial powers, and are now being recolonized by the post-colonial powers. They haven't exactly had a chance to develop their economies on the same terms as the West, have they? It's hard to set up a women's community centre when it has a drone targeting it.

Get a grip.

I do side with Richard Dawkins when he got sarcastic with someone who skated over that difference.

• Dear Muslima
  Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and … yawn … don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
  
  Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so …
  And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
  Richard

Oh Jesus, that is so fucking offensive I can't even begin to understand what the point of it is given the vile opening sentence and the accusatory tone.

So, yes it is completely racist for anyone to refer to "muslim countries".

Anyone? Fuck off! Muslim countries are countries where Islam is predominant.

And "the Jewish State" is the one where Judaism is predominant. So why aren't you being consistent? Or are you really relying on rev's plural-singular defence?

While too many people use 'Muslim' as a racist slur, I do not,

Oh yes you do

and I am certain that most members of this forum don't regard it as a denomination of race either.

Something doesn't have to be a denomination of race to be racist. Keep up

Even the most rabid racist is unlikely to claim that the Muslims living in the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, Indonesia, are of the same race as those of Egypt, Sudan or Turkey. And that's ignoring the fact that Indonesia itself is not of one homogenetic ethnicity. It's biggest one, the Javanese, are not even the majority of the population.

Irrelevant drivel.

[Exi5tentialist]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

I agree.

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

No, agreed. It's the next best thing.

It's nothing similar at all. Criticising Islam is no different to criticising any other religion or belief. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed.

There is no one thing called Islam. There are thousands of versions of it, millions. To lump it all into one is to tick the first box in the definition of islamophobia.

If you don't agree with this simple point, then our relationship on this message board simply cannot improve.

[Exi5tentialist]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

http://observer.com/2016/04/why-ayaan-h ... -liberals/

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

I have consistently stated that too many right-wing racist groups in the west use criticism of islam as a front for racism.

Exi seems to think that this means one is never, ever allowed to criticise this misogynist violent religion at all, because doing so is automatically racist.
Jihadists the world over are rubbing their hands together with glee when the politically correct left in the west gives them such a get-out-of-jail-free card...

Some muslims are misogynist right-wingers. In "criticism islam for its misogyny", you generalise to all muslims. You would not do this to any other minority.

When you refer to me being on "the left" or me being a "marxist" you are not saying ANYTHING. Try to argue your points without using vacuous labels which you are only using because you think they have value as terms of abuse. Heed your own advice for once, please. Attack the argument, not the person.

[Exi5tentialist]

It's on the last page, ffs.

I answered it, ffs Happy?

[Exi5tentialist]

Then I went on to poohpooh the idea of 'Muslim' or 'Jewish' being essentially denominators of race. Silence from your quarter.

But that was debunked as an argument years ago. It's just so fucking 2012.

Ok, think of it this way. To generalise about islam is to generalise about several races of people who are black, brown and above all foreign to the comfy white homelanders.

I do not see how it can be any more simple. It's racism.

[pErvinalia]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

http://observer.com/2016/04/why-ayaan-h ... -liberals/

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

I have consistently stated that too many right-wing racist groups in the west use criticism of islam as a front for racism.

Exi seems to think that this means one is never, ever allowed to criticise this misogynist violent religion at all, because doing so is automatically racist.
Jihadists the world over are rubbing their hands together with glee when the politically correct left in the west gives them such a get-out-of-jail-free card...

Some muslims are misogynist right-wingers. In "criticism islam for its misogyny", you generalise to all muslims. You would not do this to any other minority.

We do it regularly with Catholicism, orthodox Judaism, and Hinduism. Pull your fucking head in.

When you refer to me being on "the left" or me being a "marxist" you are not saying ANYTHING. Try to argue your points without using vacuous labels which you are only using because you think they have value as terms of abuse. Heed your own advice for once, please. Attack the argument, not the person.

What he means is the authoritarian left. Authoritarianism is evil and leads to such things as state communism and fascism. Very few of us here will willingly be lectured to by an authoritarian.

[JimC]

Seth thinks we are a left wing echo chamber.

Exi thinks we are a right wing echo chamber.

To be attacked simultaneously from the purveyors of extremist lunacy at both ends of the spectrum is all the proof we need that we are in about the right place!

[pErvinalia]

It's on the last page, ffs.

I answered it, ffs Happy?

I'd be happier if you stopped ranting and raving, and started paying attention.

[NineBerry]

Seth thinks we are a left wing echo chamber.

Exi thinks we are a right wing echo chamber.

To be attacked simultaneously from the purveyors of extremist lunacy at both ends of the spectrum is all the proof we need that we are in about the right place!

No, this is obviously a Centrist echo chamber!

[pErvinalia]

Then I went on to poohpooh the idea of 'Muslim' or 'Jewish' being essentially denominators of race. Silence from your quarter.

But that was debunked as an argument years ago. It's just so fucking 2012.

Ok, think of it this way. To generalise about islam is to generalise about several races of people who are black, brown and above all foreign to the comfy white homelanders.

I do not see how it can be any more simple. It's racism.

It's not racism. It's potentially bigotry.

[Exi5tentialist]

You can't claim in the same sentence that the problem is both capitalism and economic deprivation.

What the fuck are you talking about? Capitalism thrives on economic deprivation. Do you think it's the purpose of economic competition to make everybody rich? Is there not a smidgeon of winners and losers in your analyss?

Stopping half the potential workforce from selling their labour is anathema to capitalism.

What absolute shit. Destroying your competitors' economies is the very basis of capitalism. Why do you think Iraq was bombed to smithereens? Because of something Saddam Hussein did? Jeez, grow up.

How does western economic colonialism have anything to do with muslim people treating women like shit? You are making zero sense.

Western economic colonialism is destructive and predatory. Holding down competitor economies is its modus operandi. Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan did not have a hope of enjoying continued women's liberation after the west's intervention in their internal politics.

Not to mention, oppression pre-dates capitalism.

So fucking what?

It's a shame you can only ingest one sentence at a time. I explained below what is what.

So the same argument he uses against Islam - that it post-dates misogyny - can be used for capitalism.

I don't even know what you're supposed to be talking about here.

Stop ranting and raving and start thinking. You said that we shouldn't blame Islam for the treatment of women by Muslims, as misogyny pre-dates Islam. The same fucking argument can apply to capitalism.

I didn't say "we shouldn't blame Islam for the treatment of women by Muslims, as misogyny pre-dates Islam". I would never fucking say such a stupid thing. And if I did say it, which I didn't, I fucking repudiate it here and now.

Now, please provide a link to where I said that. I think you are paraphrasing me badly and you have completely changed my meaning. If I am wrong, prove it. And not, please, by saying "read your own words". I need a fucking link this time. Get on with it.

[JimC]

Exi5tentialist wrote:

...Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan did not have a hope of enjoying continued women's liberation after the west's intervention in their internal politics. ...

What utter crap. The Taliban was in power - were they suddenly going to have a change of heart and allow women any form of freedom? You know about them closing all the girl's schools, I hope? Or is your romantic view of the brave freedom fighters against the oppressive west that blinkered?

[Animavore]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

I agree.

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

No, agreed. It's the next best thing.

It's nothing similar at all. Criticising Islam is no different to criticising any other religion or belief. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed.

There is no one thing called Islam. There are thousands of versions of it, millions. To lump it all into one is to tick the first box in the definition of islamophobia.

If you don't agree with this simple point, then our relationship on this message board simply cannot improve.

There aren't millions of versions of Islam. There aren't even 100. There's like 3 schools with a couple of dozen branches.

You're also implicitly implying Ayaan doesn't know what she's talking about, which is hilarious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... d_branches

[JimC]

Seth thinks we are a left wing echo chamber.

Exi thinks we are a right wing echo chamber.

To be attacked simultaneously from the purveyors of extremist lunacy at both ends of the spectrum is all the proof we need that we are in about the right place!

No, this is obviously a Centrist echo chamber!

And the echoes are beautifully clear, sonorous and utterly in perfect pitch!

[JimC]

Exi5tentialist wrote:

...our relationship on this message board...

So last century...