Fine tuned universe

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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:51 am

Seth wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:The fine tuning argument is an appeal to specificity, which in turn is an appeal to ends, which in turn is a concrete example of the teleological fallacy.
:tea:
The problem with this argument is that while natural evolution may be the most "parsimonious" explanation, it does not follow that it is the only explanation, as BT corn proves.

That a Designer may not be "necessary" to the evolution of species does not mean that a Designer was not nonetheless involved in the evolution of species, or a species, again as BT corn proves.

With the advent of human manipulation of DNA to create new organisms that did not evolve "naturally" (meaning through the forces of chance and natural selection only) the teleological argument regains a position at the table because the ability of humans to design living organisms destroys the argument that the author you cite makes in regards to the watch and watchmaker.

While a watch is neither self-replicating nor self-powered, as she suggests, there is nothing in physics or science that prevents an intelligent designer from building a living organism out of fundamental particles and amino acids that is self-replicating and self-powered. Nothing supernatural is required. All that is required is advanced intelligence not so far advanced from our own and the physical capacity to manipulate DNA directly.

Therefore, the article you cite is incorrect and invalid on that basis. Natural selection may be parsimonious, but it is not the only way that an organism can come to be as it is today, as BT corn and a host of other new and genetically unique human-designed and created organisms prove, and therefore there remains room for intelligent design within the panoply of science and entirely without the sphere of supernaturalism. If we can do it, some other intelligence could have done it in the deep past and there would be no way for us to know if that occurred or not. But that ambiguity does not destroy the possibility, however remote, and so intelligent design of life on earth (or as I call it the Origin of Life on Earth - OLE) remains a valid scientific hypothesis having nothing to do with supernaturalism or theology.
I posted the link as an example of a well known kind of teleological argument and a well known explanation of its fallacious nature. I thought a specific exposition would be more informative than just linking to the Wiki article on the telelological argument, or results for 'teleology' from another online encyclopaedia.

OK, that said, let me flesh out my statement quoted above.

The argument from specificity, of which the fine tuning argument is but one example, maintains that it is reasonable to conclude, intuit or even imagine that the development of the universe could have resulted in many different sets of circumstances to the ones in which we find ourselves today, and therefore Reality as we understand it necessarily comprises a very particular, specific or unique set of circumstances. The specific circumstances of Reality as we understand it are therefore just one out of the set of all the possible sets of circumstances which may have arisen. If Reality were not specifically ordered in this way, it is said, then Reality as we understand it would not be the real reality as we understand it and we would not exist to inhabit and apprehend it.

Thus it is argued that the possibility of the specific set of circumstances which comprise Reality are so remote or unlikely as to appear virtually impossible to have arisen by chance alone, as science suggests. Therefore some 'special explanation' is needed to account for the particular and specific circumstance as we find in, and define as, Reality.

Of course, for religionists of a certain stripe their nominated deity is just such a 'special explanation' and is said to wholly account for the fact hat we find ourselves in our specific set of circumstances, on our specific life-abundant planet orbiting our specific star, in our specific galaxy within our specific universe. And so it is said that Reality has been specifically ordered according to a particular nominated deities particular specifications.

Another way of approaching this is to say that our current set of circumstances represent an 'end' that could not have occurred without a specific set of antecedent circumstances, and that the arrow of time has travelled along a specific causal chain beginning in the past to arrive at our particular present. There is not much dispute about this view of causality in general terms (and perhaps no reasonable dispute at all), however the teleological argument for the existence of God maintains that the purpose of the causal chain is to arrive at the specific end of our present circumstances and that the present is a desired, and therefore necessary end specifically ordered according to God's intent and by God's power.

The end of a chain of purposeful causation is what Aristotle referred to as telos, hence teleology. However when teleologic reasoning is applied to things like evolution or cosmology certain difficulties arise born of a confusion over what might properly represent a purpose and what might represent a cause.

When teleological thinking is applied to the formation of the human eye for example, as indeed it has been applied by creationist to dispute the principles embodied in explanations from Darwinian evolution, the teleologician is obliged to consider the purpose of the eye in terms of its function--that of facilitating 'sight'--and to describe some cause (or causal chain) that is necessarily going to arrive at Human's ability to see. This in turn obliges the teleologician to posit that the ultimate goal of sight and seeing was always a necessary factor in all antecedent circumstances; therefore the eye was always intended to see, for that is its purpose or function, and all elements in the causal chain of the eye's formation worked towards this end from the first to the last, that is; that a future end must always be materially represented in circumstances past; the 'end' of seeing causes the formation of the eye. This is fallacious because it requires that the chain of causation leads from future to past, and this requires time's arrow to fly backwards!

Acknowledging this counter-factual necessity leads to the invocation of another special explanation, one which might surmount the rational objection to backwards causality, and again religionists of a certain stripe will say that at some antecedent point in time God desired humans to see and therefore caused the set of circumstances which then allowed the causal chain to flow forwards and lead to the formation of the eye.

When this is allied to the argument from specificity one can see that it can act as an apparent bolster to arguments for a creative, intentioning, powerful controlling agent even though such claims are by there nature nothing but convenient blind assertions dependant on God's antecedent existence - and this is itself fallacious when it is taken as a 'proof' of God's existence just becasue humans have eyes that can see. The specific example of the eye is irrelevant of course because such an exposition amounts to a simple un-supported assertion that, "Because X therefore God." So-called 'fine tuning' is just such an X.

I like the Douglas Adams puddle explanation I posted earlier because it hints at a general kind of anthropomorphism inherent in teleological thinking. The water in the puddle can have no intent of course and it did not seek to travel downhill, avoiding being absorbed into the ground or evaporated into the air, specifically in order to arrive at the bottom of a depression and become a puddle, even if an Aristotelian reading of the scenario would say that the telos of water is to always to run downhill (or more broadly to always move towards the centre of the Earth).

The general anthropomorphism occurs when we ask, "But how does the water end up in the puddle when the water's future circumstances cannot directly effect its past circumstances?" and use teleological thinking to equate the causal chain between future circumstances and past circumstances with the 'purpose' of the water - as per the Aristotelian view. Purposefulness is clearly a mental state, and as we intuitively know that water cannot be purposeful in this way (though in some cultures water may indeed be imbued with a deliberate purposefulness) some special explanation such as a 'purposor' has to be invoked on the water's behalf. Thus it might be maintained that that which causes the water to arrive at its current, puddlish circumstances is a 'purposing' agent capable of ordering Reality such that water always moves towards the centre of the Earth.

Again religionists of a certain stripe will say that God specifically ordered Reality such that gravity acts in the way it does and in this respect the universe is 'fine tuned' for puddle formation.

Another example of the general anthropomorphism of teleological thinking is highlighted by your citation of BT corn. By saying that human intentioning agents can create unique, complex organisms which did not previously exist by manipulating genetic information directly, then we should not (cannot?) rule out that complex organisms, such as humans, have also been created by an intentioning agent not unlike ourselves. No doubt we will disagree on whether the life that has thus far arisen in our biosphere has occurred only "through the forces of chance and natural selection" as evidence suggests, not least because there seems to be an imaginable set of possible circumstances where it might not - and this of course holds the door open for an entity such as God is claimed to be. But here these imaginable possibilities merely represent a set of antecedent circumstances that necessarily comprise an unfalsifiable hypothesis - that God did it. In this respect the god-hypothesis amounts to an unarguable argument, that is; an argument in which the advocate of naturalism is asked to demonstrate a negative claim that a creator did not create, and this cannot be disproved or discounted for lack of evidence. In rational discourse one cannot argue against this exposition of the god-hypothesis and consequently I shall not be drawn further on this particular aspect of your point of view.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:18 am

Gawdzilla wrote:It's not a question for scientists, they don't do fairy tales.
How strange your logic is, given the fact that the Pope of Atheism, Richard Dawkins hisself said, in "The God Delusion" that the question of whether or not God exists is absolutely a question for science.

The minions of the AI (Atheist Inquisition) should be around presently to pull some fingernails and shove hot pokers up sensitive orifices to convince you of the error of your ways and redeem your heresy.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:18 am

Bless the thin blue line.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:54 am

Animavore wrote:The question Will become important for science when someone can come up with a way to test it.
Well, yes, that is the conundrum. But the difficulty of finding a way to test for the existence of God is merely a detail that doesn't change the nature of the question.
Until then there's nothing anyone can do with it.
Well, except perhaps for keeping an open mind and looking for any evidence of God's presence or interactions with the universe while going about one's scientific investigations.
No one seems to be able to give a clear definition.
No one is trying.
You can't have a theory without some facts first for the theory to explain.
Huh? Um, how about this: Fact: The universe exists and according to our present knowledge it originated in a Big Bang that took place some 14 billion or so years ago.

Hypothesis: Hypothesis: GOD caused the Big Bang to occur.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Translation to science-based hypothesis: "A science student working on a lab experiment in an adjacent membrane universe that has existed for 50 trillion years longer than our own and which operates on an entirely different set of physics, including the nature of time, is tasked with creating a new, empty membrane universe and injecting a monobloc of matter of a specific design to explore how that composition of matter will operate under a specific set of physical laws set using the lab's "General Ordering Device" which allows the student to vary the parameters of physics experimentally in a separate universe."
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
"Prior to injecting the monobloc of matter, the student inspects the new universe to make sure there is nothing that might contaminate the monobloc matter and skew the results."
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
"Activating the GOD function, the student injects the monobloc of matter into the new universe, whereupon it instantly explodes, inflates the universe and releases vast amounts of energy, including photons."
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
"The student sees that the new universe is expanding as predicted, notes some data and labels various phenomena in its lab notebook and goes home for the evening to watch Alien Idol and drink some beer."
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
"Returning to the lab somewhat hung-over, the student makes some observations and a few notes, then rushes off to the lavatory to puke up breakfast, and decides to go home for the day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
"The next day, the student notes that planets have accreted and water is being formed on one particular planet the student has chosen at random to observe and experiment on. It makes more notes and adjusts the GOD a bit to facilitate the formation of dihydrogen oxide in large quantities."
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
"After lunch, the student tinkers with various chemicals found on the planet and cyanobacteria is created. After a smoke break, it returns to the lab and diddles with amino acids and existing life to see what it can get to happen."
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
While waiting for evolution to occur, the student putters about in the rest of the universe, observing the formation and destruction of stars and planets. At one point it places a gamma-ray shield between Earth and a supernova to prevent the radiation from sterilizing the planet, which would ruin the experiment the student now has in mind: the development of sentient intelligence on Earth.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
The student tinkers with DNA of various species from time to time, but becomes dissatisfied with the results and nudges an asteroid into striking the earth near what will become the Yucatan Peninsula, wiping out all the dinosaur life and resetting the experiment to favor mammals."
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
"The student watches mammalian development carefully and is pleased with the progress being made."
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
"With occasional nudges in DNA modification, the student eventually creates Homo Sapiens, after a number of failures, and is pleased that the intelligence it proposed to create in the research grant has emerged. The student documents the experiment, submits its research and is awarded a degree. It leaves the experiment running, seeing no need to shut it down, and wishing to leave it for use by other freshmen students who may wish to continue the observations or meddle with the life on Earth from time to time."

There you go, a fully naturalistic and scientific hypothesis of the origin of the universe and GOD's place in it...No supernaturalism involved.

Testable and falsifiable? Of course, just not with the knowledge and understanding that we puny humans possess right now. When we develop the ability to travel to other membrane universes, we'll be able to determine if the hypothesis is correct.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Animavore » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:14 am

None of the above are "facts" about God. They are assertions made in some old book.
Things don't become fact until after we've established them as such. Not before. If they're fact about God then the Scientologist assertions about Xenu are also fact until proven otherwise. Not to mention every other religion extant, extinct and to be invented.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by MrFungus420 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:00 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:It's not a question for scientists, they don't do fairy tales.
How strange your logic is, given the fact that the Pope of Atheism, Richard Dawkins hisself said, in "The God Delusion" that the question of whether or not God exists is absolutely a question for science.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Clinton Huxley » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:01 am

Can you get a research grant for the scientific study of weak sci-fi?
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Animavore » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:09 am

I'm not sure about getting a grant but Dan Brown already made lots of money off something similar in Angels & Demons.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Clinton Huxley » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:10 am

Animavore wrote:I'm not sure about getting a grant but Dan Brown already made lots of money off something similar in Angels & Demons.
:)
And the film was Ewan McGregor's finest hour...
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Animavore » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:22 am

Never seen it. Didn't even know he was in it. Who did he play?
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Svartalf » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:32 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:Can you get a research grant for the scientific study of weak sci-fi?
I'm sure you can, if you don't mind your study being funded by (and treated as) a humanities department...
After all, my MA was about fantasy (though it did not claim full scientific rigor... no way you can do a Propp on a guy who wrote on acid and who self plagiarizes a full third, if not more like 3/4, of everything he writes)
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Clinton Huxley » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 am

Animavore wrote:Never seen it. Didn't even know he was in it. Who did he play?
The Pope's right hand man. Saves the day by flying off in a helicopter full of antimatter...
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Animavore » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:43 am

There is a book by Gregory Bedford called Cosm which covers something similar. A scientist accidentally creates a small universe, about the size of a basketball, in a particle accelerator in Brookhaven. It is born and dies at an observable rate over a few months. Don't think she could tinker with it, though.
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:58 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:It's not a question for scientists, they don't do fairy tales.
How strange your logic is, given the fact that the Pope of Atheism, Richard Dawkins hisself said, in "The God Delusion" that the question of whether or not God exists is absolutely a question for science.

The minions of the AI (Atheist Inquisition) should be around presently to pull some fingernails and shove hot pokers up sensitive orifices to convince you of the error of your ways and redeem your heresy.
Bend over...
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Fine tuned universe

Post by Hermit » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:23 am

Seth wrote:The minions of the AI (Atheist Inquisition) should be around presently to pull some fingernails and shove hot pokers up sensitive orifices to convince you of the error of your ways and redeem your heresy.
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