Problems with Prayer

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Pappa » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:58 pm

Dr. Pappa wrote:
BrettA wrote:
Dr. Pappa wrote:
Rum wrote:I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.
Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.
Lots of stupid things about prayer (i.e. all of it), but I also recall that there have been many studies done, the most famous was large and fairly long term and related to 'prayer' about outcomes of hospital patients. It included family members as well as congregations 'praying' for a positive outcome of some unknown person (i.e. personally unknown, but identified). As I recall, many 000s were involved and it was very general - spanning all sorts of diseases and other medical problems (short of amputees - lol) - but I'm not sure which one this supposedly famous one is as they all come to the same conclusion. Does anyone have a link to this if they even know which one I'm referring to?
I read about that in the New Scientist... maybe 18 months ago?
Hmm.... I think this is the one I read. Only 1800 patients though.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1 ... overy.html
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by BrettA » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:28 am

Dr. Pappa wrote:Hmm.... I think this is the one I read. Only 1800 patients though.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1 ... overy.html
That's a great link and as I only heard about the study and read second hand (post-news, etc.), it may have been mis-represented. But I recall this specifically mentioning three groups (prayed for by friends and acquaintances; prayed for by them plus large congregations; not prayed for) and again, more patients. Still... could be :dono: - thanks!
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by BrettA » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:20 am

I think I've posted this before, but it fits here nicely :biggrin: ...
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Sisifo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:28 am

Dr. Pappa wrote:That thread about the praying teacher got me thinking about prayer in general.

I mentioned in that thread about the infallibility problem. If god answered prayers it would mean his original decision was wrong, unless he planned to do things wrong and planned to get someone to pray to him to make him change his mind... but where would be the sense in that?

Then they're the amputees thing. God only answers prayers that could theoretically be fixed by natural means anyway. He cures cancer, but doesn't regrow legs.

Can you think of others?
I love your argument that praying is just trying to convince god to change its mind. That makes religious people, lawyers of sorts, and then things start to make sense... :ugeek:

God also seems extremely lousy at macro levels... Saves this guy or this other in battle, but seems to not understand the millions of prays for thousands of years, asking for "peace in the world"... And some of those prays, came from Miss Universes!!

I read that study too of the prayers. I think it is replicated in Hitchen's book. Anyway, as I said recently, even in fanatic countries, like saudi arabia or USA, insurances companies, don't seem to believe that someone who prays a lot, and goes to temple often, is going to live longer, or have better health. And it would make sense, wouldn't it? In the formn they ask you "are you a good faith follower and pray often", then you don't have to pay for accidents insurance...

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:32 am

Many modern, liberal christians would see it not as a straightforward request, but some form of spiritual communing with their deity, kind of like meditation, now with added god... ;)

Still woo, of course, but harder to systematically destroy...
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Rum » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:40 am

Here's a proble with it. I have not been a Christian since my late teens, though I dabbled with Buddhism for quite a long time. However I was taught the Lord's prayer when I was a kid and even now, especially if I wake in the night and I am trying to get back to sleep, those stupid words pop silently into my head. They have no context and I am certainly not trying to commune with anything.

Conditioning!

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by floppit » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:11 am

Ok, for problems I'd say that top of my list is blame. Not quite so much when the religious pray for the religious but when they pray for non believers over issues that are measurable like life and death and their prayers do not have the desired results - things do not go well, then I think there is an element of blame placed on the non believer at a time they need it least. That's a big downside.

But, and I might get a little scorched for saying this, I do think there's an upside for the prayer (as opposed to prayed for) in praying for other people. To take some time out of one's own life situation and to consider another's is something I think can be very healthy and a habit of prayer, lists of people to be prayed for, can achieve that. I have a childhood memory of the church announced prayer list, like jungle drums for where a bit of extra thought is needed, a lost job, illness, operations. I have no illusion that the private prayers made no difference to those prayed for but to the person praying I think it gives a broader perspective of life's ups and downs, one that extends beyond their own circumstances.

Like Rum, I've enjoyed reading some buddhist philosophy (ooops - perhaps you didn't enjoy it Rum), not from a spiritual point of view but some of the ideas and philosophies I found really interesting and helpful. Probably the biggest of those is to accept that my perceptions of my loved ones as actually more important than any other person is illogical, same goes for myself. I'd never achieve living that way, I'm 100% human and as egocentric as the next person but at least knowing this is a human error rather than reality does help me. Sometimes, in my job even often, I see people in very hard situations and for a while I used to set aside a little time each day to consider what those situations needed to from people to make life easier. For example, a person cut off from family or so anxious they won't go out, maybe they need a phonecall, maybe a person not to be frustrated or angry. Whatever it is that my flawed but best thinking comes up with I'd then try to put back in the world (phone my parents, accept someone else's fears) - it doesn't matter where I'd do it because the person I know isn't actually more important than the one I don't. I found this a really functional way of not feeling useless in the face of people's very real distress but I must admit the habit has waned over time. Bizarrely this thread has reminded me of my own prayer alternative and given me a nudge not to forget it entirely.

I don't think prayer is entirely negative, but I think the concept of religion isn't helpful to doing it well.
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:34 am

There's the difference, floppit, and you've got it in one.

If one sets aside time, as you do/did, to think about the problems of others, and think about ways you could actually help, then the act of thinking about and considering that other person or those other people becomes a useful and potentially helpful thing to do. Even if you can't find anything that will help in a practical way, at least you've given it some serious thought, and tried to find something.

Setting aside that same time, thinking about the problems of others, and fervently asking god to do something about it (prayer) does absolutely nothing for anyone but the prayee, who gets the self-satisfaction of feeling they've done something useful.

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by klr » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:37 am

Yup, if praying (really praying) is all you do, then you're not helping ...

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by floppit » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:37 am

Setting aside that same time, thinking about the problems of others, and asking god to do something about it (prayer) does absolutely nothing for anyone but the prayee, who gets the self-satisfaction of feeling they've done something useful.
Yeah but you said it better! :hehe:
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by devogue » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:47 am

A famous and exceptionally sensible little presentation...


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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Pappa » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:49 am

Sisifo wrote:God also seems extremely lousy at macro levels... Saves this guy or this other in battle, but seems to not understand the millions of prays for thousands of years, asking for "peace in the world"... And some of those prays, came from Miss Universes!!
I never though of that one, it's a very good point. Though I suppose it's quite similar to the "opposing teams" argument. Anyway, we all know god doesn't answer the world peace prayers because the wars are all part of his mysterious plan. :hehe:
Sisifo wrote:I read that study too of the prayers. I think it is replicated in Hitchen's book. Anyway, as I said recently, even in fanatic countries, like saudi arabia or USA, insurances companies, don't seem to believe that someone who prays a lot, and goes to temple often, is going to live longer, or have better health. And it would make sense, wouldn't it? In the formn they ask you "are you a good faith follower and pray often", then you don't have to pay for accidents insurance...
I read a similar thing about Christians and health insurance. The logic goes: Christians can't really believe god will take care of them because otherwise they wouldn't bother paying heath insurance. (Obviously barring the very few who do actually pray instead of going to the hospital.)
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:51 am

klr wrote:Yup, if praying (really praying) is all you do, then you're not helping ...

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Devogue wrote:A famous and exceptionally sensible little presentation...

Yup and yup!

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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Pappa » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am

BrettA wrote:
Dr. Pappa wrote:Hmm.... I think this is the one I read. Only 1800 patients though.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1 ... overy.html
That's a great link and as I only heard about the study and read second hand (post-news, etc.), it may have been mis-represented. But I recall this specifically mentioning three groups (prayed for by friends and acquaintances; prayed for by them plus large congregations; not prayed for) and again, more patients. Still... could be :dono: - thanks!
There are others too, but that was the one I read I think.

http://www.newscientist.com/search?doSe ... ery=prayer
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Re: Problems with Prayer

Post by Pappa » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:56 am

JimC wrote:Many modern, liberal christians would see it not as a straightforward request, but some form of spiritual communing with their deity, kind of like meditation, now with added god... ;)

Still woo, of course, but harder to systematically destroy...
I hate that one.... it's like the "god of the gaps" thing. They only say that now because the more traditional view of prayer doesn't stand up to scrutiny. :lay:
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