What if God is real but quiet to max out your free choices?

[Seth]

In the extremely unlikely event there is a god, he, she or it can fuck off...

One hopes you don't live to regret that....

I suspect you mean die to regret that...

Good point, but it might be either/or as well.

I'll take my chances - they're pretty good, I think...

See how that whole free will thingy works?

[Seth]

Why should he, can't you tell god to fuck off?

-a spiritual pup...

Of course you can. You may however come to regret doing so. That's why they call it "free will."

[Seth]

What if he's batshit crazy, has completely forgotten he is god, and is living happily as pondslime?

Then you may spend eternity as cyanobacteria.

What if he is a sadistic fuck that really gets off on all the bloodshed, guilt and internecine arguments?

Deliberately pissing off supernatural beings that can screw with you for eternity seems to me to be more than a bit...free-willish.

What if he's only 3 years old (in god-years) and he made this world but was then sent to bed without his parents noticing?

Maybe one day he'll remember where he left the universe and stop by to check it out.

What if he's a fucking mormon?

Then he gets to bang teenage virgins while you labor for him.

All of these are equally valid (and equally pointless) questions.

None of which provide any evidence that God doesn't exist.

We have no evidence for god other than claims of personal revelation, bad pseudoscience and dubious, historic texts.

Not necessarily. I'd say that you may simply be unaware of such evidence.

Picking one from the lucky-dip of religious multiplicity might sound like sense to some. Not to me, thanks. I have no idea if god exists and know nothing about its nature if it does - the sensible course is to act as if he doesn't exist until things are decided either way.

Unless you don't make the cut because of your skepticism, which might really, really suck.

[Seth]

If there is a god, there are no free choices. If God knows the future, then your choices are already ordained.
If everyone has a free choice, then there isn't one single knowable future. There are squillions of them.

Um, knowing the future is not the same thing as determining the future.

It does mean that the future is predetermined and that there is no such thing as 'free will' however. Mistermack correctly identified a possible logical fault in Scumple's hypothetical. Unless Scumple's god is quiet not because he knows we know he knows the future and will do what he (or she, I'd much rather have a female god personally) wants and says because of that.

It's like do we do what god wants because it's her will or is it her will that causes us to do what she wants? Right?

Unless God is merely an observer.

[Seth]

If there is a god, there are no free choices. If God knows the future, then your choices are already ordained.
If everyone has a free choice, then there isn't one single knowable future. There are squillions of them.

Um, knowing the future is not the same thing as determining the future.

It does mean that the future is predetermined and that there is no such thing as 'free will' however. Mistermack correctly identified a possible logical fault in Scumple's hypothetical. Unless Scumple's god is quiet not because he knows we know he knows the future and will do what he (or she, I'd much rather have a female god personally) wants and says because of that.

It's like do we do what god wants because it's her will or is it her will that causes us to do what she wants? Right?

It is also possible (if we accept the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient god as at all possible - but that's not for here) that the future is not fixed but that this god chappie knows all possible futures and how all possible actions of all creatures will affect things. Perhaps she keeps its interference to the absolute minimum necessary to propel the universe in his preferred direction?

Or maybe not. Maybe god doesn't speak to us because of a profound love of mime.

Kinda like a giant science experiment...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

What if he's batshit crazy, has completely forgotten he is god, and is living happily as pondslime?

Then you may spend eternity as cyanobacteria.

What if he is a sadistic fuck that really gets off on all the bloodshed, guilt and internecine arguments?

Deliberately pissing off supernatural beings that can screw with you for eternity seems to me to be more than a bit...free-willish.

What if he's only 3 years old (in god-years) and he made this world but was then sent to bed without his parents noticing?

Maybe one day he'll remember where he left the universe and stop by to check it out.

What if he's a fucking mormon?

Then he gets to bang teenage virgins while you labor for him.

All of these are equally valid (and equally pointless) questions.

None of which provide any evidence that God doesn't exist.

I have never claimed either to possess, or be able to offer such a proof. That was not the point of my examples. I was simply highlighting the futility of playing "what if" when it comes to putative, supernatural entities.

We have no evidence for god other than claims of personal revelation, bad pseudoscience and dubious, historic texts.

Not necessarily. I'd say that you may simply be unaware of such evidence.

Possibly. But even in that case, I still don't have it. Neither does anyone else as far as I can ascertain. Although several claim to have such evidence but are strangely reticent in sharing it. Evidence that is not presented for scrutiny becomes de facto hearsay.

Picking one from the lucky-dip of religious multiplicity might sound like sense to some. Not to me, thanks. I have no idea if god exists and know nothing about its nature if it does - the sensible course is to act as if he doesn't exist until things are decided either way.

Unless you don't make the cut because of your skepticism, which might really, really suck.

Which cut? The catholic cut? The JW's cut? The mormon cut? The Norse cut? The muslim cut? The yazidi cut? The hindu cut? The final cut (not Pink Floyd's finest hour)? Given a huge range of mutually exclusive deities to pick from, and their varied criteria for whatever they offer as a reward to their faithful, I STILL think the simplest course is not to choose any unless one has something more definite to go on. If religion teaches us anything, it's that nothing pisses of a god more than your worshipping a different one.

[JimC]

XC wrote:

If religion teaches us anything, it's that nothing pisses of a god more than your worshipping a different one.

That gives me a damn good reason to start worshiping Baal, just to piss off that arsehole Jahweh...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

XC wrote:

If religion teaches us anything, it's that nothing pisses of a god more than your worshipping a different one.

That gives me a damn good reason to start worshiping Baal, just to piss off that arsehole Jahweh...

I'm sure your adoration of the holy Gin has already done that, Jim.

[JimC]

Indeed I adore it, but not being a religious sort of bloke, it should be wholly gin...

[JimC]

Then there was a female goddess (Ishtar?) that really pissed of those old Jewish prophets. Lots of nude dancing around altars, I suspect...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Indeed I adore it, but not being a religious sort of bloke, it should be wholly gin...

No tonic?

[JimC]

The tonic is a little like the holy ghost...

[cronus]

Imagine he set time to only go forwards. Now time 'his time' is really big....and your time is frankly nothing at all in comparison. Not saying he's a sadist, most likely a nihilist with a vague interest in morality like me, and so you think you'll live forever and God does. He is a creative soul and he made you out of whimsy and set you going....in a world of moral conundrums....everything, science especially, produces relentless moral choices....you spend that flicker, that one moment - your entire life trying to figure them out with no reward - indeed according to the dominant religion judgement and perhaps eternal punishment? his lack of credibility in these various religious texts would serve a crucial purpose in providing evidence of not being around so you can do what you like - and when the bill comes in at the end of life you get exactly what you paid for...and being cultural Christians who celebrate Christmas(regardless of its carbon footprint) that's exactly how you lot are living.

[Hermit]

The tonic is a little like the holy ghost...

Gin being the holy spirit?

[Svartalf]

Don't mean totally quiet, left a few hints....about. Not enough to prove his existence and ruin the freedom of your moral choices.... *


* doesn't apply to me, I'm a nihilist....

even if it exists, god is evil and unworthy of worship, period.
plus, what hints? the babble is not a hint, it's a fucking stack of absurdities, and so are all reived works... so what god would have left what hints?