Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

[Gallstones]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

Robert, do you seriously think there is any real risk of that? Catholics have done relic veneration for centuries. Civilization still advanced.

[Gallstones]

It is a piece of rubble.
It is only a cross if you want it to be a cross. And it confounds me that atheists would ascribe the symbolism to it and be anxious as if it has some kind of power having been ascribed symbolic value.

It is a piece of rubble that first, has great significant to the rescuers; and second, has pertinence as an artifact.

[hadespussercats]

It is an object.
What one associates with it is one's privilege.

I, being a tax payer, am completely unconcerned with what symbolism others associate it with.

I don't think opposing this chunk of I-beam will do the cause of skepticism any good. It will just make atheists look like petty assholes and widen the divide.

Even in xtianity, crosses have different configurations. Also, the perpendicular arrangement of linear components is not trademarked by xtianity, even if they think so.

It is an object, a piece of a building. The building itself was secular in purpose and symbolism.

+1. Since when is a steel girder necessarily religious? Jeez, now I think I'll start making a stand against lower-case t.

Though the fact that it's being called a Cross is kinda funny. It's just shape of scrap.
I sort of wish someone would use a grilled-cheese-sandwich image of Jesus for a memorial.

[hadespussercats]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

The whole memorial site could be seen as relic veneration. Why keep the footprints of the towers? Why not use that space to build low-income housing, or a public hospital, or some other service Manhattan desperately needs?

It's irrational. But sometimes people need material to mourn.

Even some atheists...

[Robert_S]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

The whole memorial site could be seen as relic veneration. Why keep the footprints of the towers? Why not use that space to build low-income housing, or a public hospital, or some other service Manhattan desperately needs?

It's irrational. But sometimes people need material to mourn.

Even some atheists...

I mean relic in a mystical way, that somehow God left a sign in the form of two steel beams. I suppose since it was significant to the people who were there that day, then it could be acceptable provided it isn't presented in a manner that somehow endorses religion.

I still think it is a little insensitive to all the victims of religion who perished that day.

[hadespussercats]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

The whole memorial site could be seen as relic veneration. Why keep the footprints of the towers? Why not use that space to build low-income housing, or a public hospital, or some other service Manhattan desperately needs?

It's irrational. But sometimes people need material to mourn.

Even some atheists...

I mean relic in a mystical way, that somehow God left a sign in the form of two steel beams. I suppose since it was significant to the people who were there that day, then it could be acceptable provided it isn't presented in a manner that somehow endorses religion.

I still think it is a little insensitive to all the victims of religion who perished that day.

I see where you're coming from on that last bit.

I guess I'm glad that what they're erecting and calling a cross is actually an ambiguous object-- and something that's actually from the Towers.

I'd be angry if they'd actually constructed a Cross for the site.

[Gallstones]

We can't stop people from seeing mystical significance in even the most mundane things.

I still have the rosary and crucifix I got when I attended a Cursillo. I really like the crucifix too, but haven't worn it in years. I still have the crucifix I was given at my Confirmation and the bible I was given. These objects only have nostalgic significance to me now.

I would like to wear the one crucifix from time to time as jewelry, but I don't want to mislead anyone. And that is really kind of unfair(?).


The rescuers wrote the names of some of the dead on those I beams. I think that enhances it's significance to the memorial.

People objected to the Viet Nam Memorial because they thought it was too plain and ugly. They expected something more traditional.

[Gallstones]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

The whole memorial site could be seen as relic veneration. Why keep the footprints of the towers? Why not use that space to build low-income housing, or a public hospital, or some other service Manhattan desperately needs?

It's irrational. But sometimes people need material to mourn.

Even some atheists...

I mean relic in a mystical way, that somehow God left a sign in the form of two steel beams. I suppose since it was significant to the people who were there that day, then it could be acceptable provided it isn't presented in a manner that somehow endorses religion.

I still think it is a little insensitive to all the victims of religion who perished that day.

I see where you're coming from on that last bit.

I guess I'm glad that what they're erecting and calling a cross is actually an ambiguous object-- and something that's actually from the Towers.

I'd be angry if they'd actually constructed a Cross for the site.

Yes, It was taken from, it was a part of and original to the site. It was not made for it.

Robert, I don't think people see it as a tragedy of religion per se. Atheists might be more sensitive to that aspect.

[FBM]

Why was that particular piece of rubble chosen over all the other stuff? Because it looks like a cross sent to duh'merkins by gwod to show his support for xtians over islam. It's a tacit declaration that the US is a xtian nation. It's self-righteous and inflammatory, and it violates the constitutional separation of church and state for the gummit to spend one tax dime on it.

But I don't live there and it won't be my tax money, so whatever.

[charlou]

This is one of those debates where I think good points are being made by everyone.

[Gallstones]

Why was that particular piece of rubble chosen over all the other stuff? Because it looks like a cross sent to duh'merkins by gwod to show his support for xtians over islam. It's a tacit declaration that the US is a xtian nation. It's self-righteous and inflammatory, and it violates the constitutional separation of church and state for the gummit to spend one tax dime on it.

But I don't live there and it won't be my tax money, so whatever.

It isn't violating anything and I doubt the American Atheists will get any traction. All they will do is damage the image of atheists and undermine secular concerns.

[hadespussercats]

Why was that particular piece of rubble chosen over all the other stuff? Because it looks like a cross sent to duh'merkins by gwod to show his support for xtians over islam. It's a tacit declaration that the US is a xtian nation. It's self-righteous and inflammatory, and it violates the constitutional separation of church and state for the gummit to spend one tax dime on it.

But I don't live there and it won't be my tax money, so whatever.

If I'm not mistaken, there were some famous photographs taken of this piece of rubble as it was lifted from the site-- definitely playing up the xtian symbolism, but also establishing simple provenance in a powerful way.

And this might be sort of a dumb point, but those buildings were all about being orthogonal-- it'd almost be more difficult to find scraps that weren't right angles. Which for me also works to play down the religious symbolism.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I wonder what the relatives of the islamic, hindu, buddhist and secular victims of 9/11 are making of it...?

They should erect as an X rather than a †.

[FBM]

450attackstradecentercross.jpg (39.42 KiB) Viewed 416 times

http://www.werismyki.com/artcls/cross_gives_hope.htm

Cross Gives Hope for Change After 9/11

AAACross3Night.jpg (22.34 KiB) Viewed 414 times

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!