Fuck! Indoctrinating my child! Fucking bollocks!

[roter-kaiser]

I would talk to the teacher straight away and tell him to stop that nonsense. If you pay for a school and they claim to be inclusive, then they have to stick to facts and don't tell their students that the bible is true. We have a similar system here in Australia where scripture is still is still part of the curriculum but schools have to provide alternatives for students who don't want to attend. If the school tries to indoctrinate kids against their will or their parent's wills, you can report that to the Department for Education etc. Usually, when you tell them to stop or else, they get scared.

I f

[Seth]

You might also want to consider the social implications of making your daughter a vocal atheist at this tender age. The statement about her friends putting their fingers in their ears in response to her saying God wasn't real is indicative of a serious concern.

It's all well and good to stick to your atheist guns because you're an adult who can pick and choose her friends, but your young daughter has to get along and be socially accepted by her peers, and substantial harm can occur if a child is ostracized, or worse yet, bullied and demeaned and singled out for abuse as a result of your insistence that she adhere to atheism. It would be awful for her to have no friends and be excluded from social events because she's been labeled by her peers, or worse yet, their intolerant parents.

I'm not being critical of you and I'm not suggesting that she must kowtow to theists, nor am I suggesting that this is fair, or rational, or acceptable, I'm merely pointing out that the "green monkey" syndrome is a risk that your daughter will likely face, just as minorities face prejudice and bigotry when they are children, and I urge you to take these socialization issues into account in whatever plan you eventually decide upon. What may be best for her from the view of her happiness and ability to have friends and participate may not comport with your personal atheistic beliefs. This is unfortunate, but it seems to me to be one of those necessary compromises to protect a sensitive young child from emotional harm.

In my case, my atheist mother simply told me not to discuss religion with my peers, ever, and if pressed, to just shrug and say "I dunno." When I was old enough to defend my beliefs and pick and choose my friends, I knew without being told how to respond to religious zealots, and plain old religious people, which is with tolerance and respect. And that's why I developed Tolerism™ as my religion.

I decided long ago that my "religion" had nothing to do with the religion of others, and that for the sake of comity and social interaction, it was best to simply avoid the subject of religion in polite company, unless the particular context required a discussion of religion, in which case I argue my position while being respectful of other people's opinion.

[.Morticia.]

I have to agree with Seth.

Like it or not atheists have to be careful.

[JimC]

It was our 'meet the teachers' evening this week. The final conversation went something like this:

Teacher: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
Me: Yes. Pixie doesn't have any religion. She understands that this is a church of england school and that there will be references to one of the gods she doesn't believe in. Recently, though, she was asked to write a prayer and that made her uncomfortable. So I have told her that she can approach these issues by addressing the world instead. If, for instance, she has to write another 'prayer' she will start it 'dear world' and end it 'thank you world'. OK?
Teacher: Yes.

It was non confrontational and I knew a) what I wanted to say and b) what they were obliged to allow. It all went much easier than I had imagined. Mind you, it was probably helped by the fact that the teacher's opening statement when we sat down was "What can I say about Pixie? She's just amazing!" Yes, she is.

That is certainly the best approach to take; as a teacher, I appreciate non-confrontational parents!

And of course Pixie is awesome - she has you as a mother!

[beige]

That's surprising, I would have expected it in a CoE school, but not in an ordinary one. (Unfortunately where I live they only really had CoE primaries, but I turned out okay... Sorta).

Give the teacher a good slap. That's well beyond the bounds of his job description.

[HomerJay]

I think instead of indoctrinating your child about evolution

This is a fairly essential category error, teaching children about approaches to understanding the world through a scientific method is not the same as teaching them about a singular world view.

[HomerJay]

I have to agree with Seth.

Whoa, time to do a checksum.

I wonder if it's different in the States than the UK cos I wouldn't see this as a problem here.

If there was a problem regarding socialisation you'd only know about it if you knew the social context, that is the make up and behaviour of the social group. If that knowledge isn't available you'd have to put in place a general rule along the signs Seth suggests of always keeping your head down.

A general rule would disallow for the possibility of the child exploring their beliefs in every circumstance, even in friendly environments, which doesn't seem a sustainable or productive view to take.

[JOZeldenrust]

I think instead of indoctrinating your child about evolution

This is a fairly essential category error, teaching children about approaches to understanding the world through a scientific method is not the same as teaching them about a singular world view.

But saying "the Bible isn't true because evolution says so", to a five year old, isn't teaching. It's indoctrination.

[Millefleur]

Spoke to him this morning, he seemed apprehensive when I walked in But.. he is an atheist An atheist raised by a Catholic father who was very respectful about his decisions, so all good there. They cover all religions briefly during holidays, they did Diwali not long ago and dipped into Christianity again on Pancake Day/Shrove Tuesday - which is probably why it's still fresh in her mind. He comes across as very impartial, the 'issue' seems to be because half of the class are one form of Christian or another it comes up regularly in conversation, 'God did this, Jesus said that', etc and there was likely alot of chatter when Jesus was referred to on Tuesday. It's great he says 'some believe that..' but when half the class believe it and the rest might not have any view on it then it may come across as common knowledge, fact without it being stated as so. He's going to put a little more emphasis on the 'some believe part..' so it comes across as a belief system and not fact, without upsetting everybody else (parents included).

I have said to her before that she must be careful not to upset people - there are only 11/12 in the class - because 'some people believe strongly' in such and such and if it'll cause arguments or upset it's best to avoid the topic (Ben jumped in when I said this in the meeting and said that debate is good ). But it is hard sometimes to remember to take off the anti - religion head and put on the sensible talking to a child head, as it were.

He reassured me they do approach 'creation' from a scientific stand point, he knows she's fascinated by the Big Bang, formation of the Earth as we know it, evolution and dinosaurs, although now she wants to be an explorer and not a paleontologist and archeaologist

[HomerJay]

I think instead of indoctrinating your child about evolution

This is a fairly essential category error, teaching children about approaches to understanding the world through a scientific method is not the same as teaching them about a singular world view.

But saying "the Bible isn't true because evolution says so", to a five year old, isn't teaching. It's indoctrination.

Nope, unless we use indoctrination is some very constrained manner. Evolution is not the antonym of Creation, that's the category error.

The precepts of evolution are disposable notions that have value only in so much as they approximate to testable truth values based on available evidence.

Creationist and indoctrinated views are valued independently of their approximation to testable truth values based on available evidence.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...But saying "the Bible isn't true because evolution says so", to a five year old, isn't teaching. It's indoctrination.

Just say (or rather show) that evolution is true, and let them draw the obvious conclusion for themselves.

[JOZeldenrust]

I think instead of indoctrinating your child about evolution

This is a fairly essential category error, teaching children about approaches to understanding the world through a scientific method is not the same as teaching them about a singular world view.

But saying "the Bible isn't true because evolution says so", to a five year old, isn't teaching. It's indoctrination.

Nope, unless we use indoctrination is some very constrained manner. Evolution is not the antonym of Creation, that's the category error.

I'm not saying it is, much the opposite. I'm saying that the objections against religion raised by evolutionary theory require a complex set of cognitive steps to process. Steps you can't expect a five year old to make without being familiar with both evolution and religion. Not as antonyms or alternatives, but as largely unrelated concepts. I'm not advocating "teaching the controversy", but the kid isn't being tought creationism or ID, she's being told stories from the Bible. Saying those aren't true because evolution says so is indoctrination, because it relies solely on the position of the parent as an authority figure to be convincing.

I'd think now is not the time to try to convince the kid that evolution is true, or that God doesn't exist. Rather, explain to her how different people can say things that contradict one another without them being dishonest. A five year old should have enough of a theory of mind to process that.

The precepts of evolution are disposable notions that have value only in so much as they approximate to testable truth values based on available evidence.

Creationist and indoctrinated views are valued independently of their approximation to testable truth values based on available evidence.

I know, and you should have known I know from my original post. If you think the point is relevant, you go and explain the distinction between empirical and authorative epistemology to a five year old.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

(sheepish) 'It's a game I made up..'

'I don't believe that.

(

Typical atheist.

[HomerJay]

Saying those aren't true because evolution says so is indoctrination, because it relies solely on the position of the parent as an authority figure to be convincing

Not normally what we mean by indoctrination, as I said, if we contrive the meaning of indoctrination to cover it, then yes it's indoctrination.

[Seth]

I have to agree with Seth.

Whoa, time to do a checksum.

I wonder if it's different in the States than the UK cos I wouldn't see this as a problem here.

If there was a problem regarding socialisation you'd only know about it if you knew the social context, that is the make up and behaviour of the social group. If that knowledge isn't available you'd have to put in place a general rule along the signs Seth suggests of always keeping your head down.

A general rule would disallow for the possibility of the child exploring their beliefs in every circumstance, even in friendly environments, which doesn't seem a sustainable or productive view to take.

Well, when it comes to childhood satisfaction and happiness, do not most children learn to "keep their heads down" to some degree or other in order to be part of the social group? I certainly recall desperately trying to learn to "fit in" so that I wouldn't be excluded from all social activities when I was young. And I can say from experience that being an "unusual" person lead to a lot of social stigma and exclusion.

My only concern is that Pixie's mom not add to the load her child is going to be bearing no matter what by forcing her to confront theists at such a young age, when in all probability she doesn't even understand the concepts involved. I understand the socio-political pressures on atheists, believe me, but I don't think that children need to be used as pawns in that battle. Better, I think to let them make that decision when they are old enough to understand and accept the consequences freely.