Catholic Mass 'sexist and elitist', say priests.

[Seth]

Buncha bleeding arse morons. The use of the masculine for indeterminate gender has been rooted in IE languages for millenia, possibly since before writing even arose in Egypt and Sumer, and they would impose bulky and graceless phrasing because all of a sudden the time honored custom offends their boy tiddling sensitivities? Let them leave the priesthood if they don't like tradition.

Is that true?

When I was doing pol sci and studied the enlightment etc at first I thought the He/him/man schtick was just literary custom. But no, to my horror I found they really really did mean ONLY MEN.

I believe it has something to do with the commandments of God (well, their god). As such, it's not subject to democratic debate, it's a tenet of the religion. Catholicism is not a democracy, a fact which seems to escape the notice of pretty much everyone outside of Catholicism. For "the church" to go against the commandments of God is apostasy and heresy and threatens those who do so with excommunication and damnation.

Say what you will about the believability of the commandments of God, for believers it's not a subject open to debate. It's their religion, so your opinions, and the opinions of those who wrongly thing that Catholicism is a democracy, are of little interest to the church. And that's as it should be.

Don't like the rules? Join another club.

[Svartalf]

Yep, you have to love the condescendance of the priests protesting something in the name of the women because the poor things are obviously too timid to speak for themselves

Knowing Irish women, I have no doubt that if they were angry at Rome, a mass boycott (pun intended) would be the least thing to be expected.

[Seth]

If you don't like Catholic orthodoxy and dogma, don't be a Catholic. Sounds pretty simple to me. Why you would bitch about how someone else runs their private club is a puzzlement.

Why? Because I was forced to attend this club for many years. Now that I'm out, I usually couldn't care less about what goes on at Sunday mass, but the irony in this story is inescapable.

There are apostates, heretics and dissenters in every religion, including Catholicism. Martin Luther was just such a dissenter, and he went on to form his own church in response to disagreement with the Pope, which is perfectly appropriate.

There are liberal, far-left, and overtly socialist/communist priests in the Catholic church. The American Council of Catholic Bishops is way liberal and butts heads with the Vatican on a regular basis over doctrinal issues. But the Pope is the spiritual head of the church and the Vicar of God and what he says, goes, like it or not.

Catholicism is not a democracy, and splinter sects and doctrinal dissenters are excommunicated from the church all the time. All that means is that they don't get support from the church, and may not call themselves "Catholics" any more. They are free, however, to believe and worship as they choose, just like Martin Luther did.

There's no irony whatsoever in the story, it's just a bunch of dissident priests who are displaying disobedience to Catholic doctrine for reasons of their own, which appear to be a mix of procedural and political objections.

Sucks to be them, I guess, because the Pope is in charge, not them.

And if you were "forced" to attend services, then sue your parents, because they are the one's who did the "forcing," not the church. If you remained in the Catholic church for very long, you were "confirmed," which means that you were given the option to become a full practicing Catholic BY CHOICE. Nobody held a gun to your head and required you to profess faith. And I'm betting that unlike Islam, nobody put a gun to your head when you decided not to be a Catholic any longer.

Man-up and take responsibility for your decisions, quit trying to blame Catholicism for your change of heart or what your parents may have done to you as a child.

[klr]

If you don't like Catholic orthodoxy and dogma, don't be a Catholic. Sounds pretty simple to me. Why you would bitch about how someone else runs their private club is a puzzlement.

Why? Because I was forced to attend this club for many years. Now that I'm out, I usually couldn't care less about what goes on at Sunday mass, but the irony in this story is inescapable.

There are apostates, heretics and dissenters in every religion, including Catholicism. Martin Luther was just such a dissenter, and he went on to form his own church in response to disagreement with the Pope, which is perfectly appropriate.

There are liberal, far-left, and overtly socialist/communist priests in the Catholic church. The American Council of Catholic Bishops is way liberal and butts heads with the Vatican on a regular basis over doctrinal issues. But the Pope is the spiritual head of the church and the Vicar of God and what he says, goes, like it or not.

Catholicism is not a democracy, and splinter sects and doctrinal dissenters are excommunicated from the church all the time. All that means is that they don't get support from the church, and may not call themselves "Catholics" any more. They are free, however, to believe and worship as they choose, just like Martin Luther did.

All true, but you see: I really just don't care ...

There's no irony whatsoever in the story, it's just a bunch of dissident priests who are displaying disobedience to Catholic doctrine for reasons of their own, which appear to be a mix of procedural and political objections.

Irony is in the eye of the (otherwise disinterested) beholder. The irony as I see it is that they are claiming that a variation in the mass is sexist and elitist, whereas every variation I ever attended (and there were a great many) merited that description. And to think that they got rid of the Tridentine before I had a chance to experience it.

Sucks to be them, I guess, because the Pope is in charge, not them.

And if you were "forced" to attend services, then sue your parents, because they are the one's who did the "forcing," not the church.

My father is long since dead, so I guess I won't be suing him.

BTW, the Catholic church still controls the vast majority of the primary education system in this country, and exercises real power over who gets to go to its schools, and teaches in them. That's where a lot of the pressure for parents to raise their children "in the faith" comes from, so this is one thing that does exercise me. But I suppose you'll be telling me next that it's the fault of the populace for not demanding that this state of affairs be changed. And actually I'd agree with you - up to a point. So save your efforts and please don't bother ...

If you remained in the Catholic church for very long, you were "confirmed," which means that you were given the option to become a full practicing Catholic BY CHOICE.

Hmmm ... I was 11. Hey, maybe we should allow 11 year-olds to vote, drink, join the armed forces, etc. Confirmation was just a ritual, the next step in the tiresome list of Catholic sacraments. we all pretty much took it like that.

Nobody held a gun to your head and required you to profess faith. And I'm betting that unlike Islam, nobody put a gun to your head when you decided not to be a Catholic any longer.

Man-up and take responsibility for your decisions, quit trying to blame Catholicism for your change of heart or what your parents may have done to you as a child.

Oh, give over and stop getting up on your high horse about it. Stop trying to manufacture some sort of angst or unresolved issue on my part that simply doesn't exist. Church was just boring and annoying and a waste of time, especially since I usually had to dress up in my best clothes and fast for Sunday morning mass. But beyond that, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass, since I never really believed in any of the voodoo anyway - far too rational, even as a kid.

It looks to me that you're the one with the issues, if any superficial discussion or light-hearted commentary on this or any other matter causes you to get up on a high horse. Or flog a dead one ...

[colubridae]

sorry pressed wrong button.

[JimC]

klr wrote:

Oh, give over and stop getting up on your high horse about it. Stop trying to manufacture some sort of angst or unresolved issue on my part that simply doesn't exist. Church was just boring and annoying and a waste of time, especially since I usually had to dress up in my best clothes and fast for Sunday morning mass. But beyond that, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass, since I never really believed in any of the voodoo anyway - far too rational, even as a kid.

It looks to me that you're the one with the issues, if any superficial discussion or light-hearted commentary on this or any other matter causes you to get up on a high horse. Or flog a dead one ...

Absolutely perfect fucking reply!

[Ronja]

klr wrote:

Oh, give over and stop getting up on your high horse about it. Stop trying to manufacture some sort of angst or unresolved issue on my part that simply doesn't exist. Church was just boring and annoying and a waste of time, especially since I usually had to dress up in my best clothes and fast for Sunday morning mass. But beyond that, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass, since I never really believed in any of the voodoo anyway - far too rational, even as a kid.

It looks to me that you're the one with the issues, if any superficial discussion or light-hearted commentary on this or any other matter causes you to get up on a high horse. Or flog a dead one ...

Absolutely perfect fucking reply!

- very well put, klr!

[.Morticia.]

The most annoying thing about Seth's posts is that he seems unable or unwilling to distinguish btw the laity, ie the paying customers, and the employees, ie the priesthood.

[Robert_S]

The issue is not that anyone here is trying to use laws or force to make the Catholic Church change it metaphysics, instead we are not taking their bullshit seriously. We are not taking it seriously openly, happily and unapologetically. The fact that the CC is not a democracy and tries to adhere to to doctrine that others find laughable is their problem.

However, Seth, that would have been an excellent way to start a spirited, thought provoking and highly rational debate should one of our members have had issues from childhood of the kind that have been making headlines lately.

[Animavore]

Sorry, Seth, I was just pointing out the irony, not "bitching", I couldn't give a shit what those men in gowns do as long as they don't rape my children. Doesn't mean I can't point and laugh.

[Annuhh5]

They only realised this now? The Catholic Church has always been sexist. For example, during weddings some readings suggest that the woman must 'obey' the man.

[klr]

They only realised this now? The Catholic Church has always been sexist. For example, during weddings some readings suggest that the woman must 'obey' the man.

I wonder if they drop that in modern ceremonies - the church has tried to come over all warm and fuzzy to keep with the times. Even Limbo isn't what it used to be ...

BTW, there's an Irish expression "to get mass", which basically defines mass as a chore that you have to do - even amongst hardcore Catholics. There were times when our family went to a different church than normal because there was a particularly speedy priest who didn't muck about with long sermons, waffle or choirs. In and out in 30 minutes ...

[Annuhh5]

I love how the Church realises these things AFTER everyone else has. As soon as the number of Church goers decreases, they get into action to get them all back.

[klr]

I love how the Church realises these things AFTER everyone else has. As soon as the number of Church goers decreases, they get into action to get them all back.

Of course. The Church is desperately trying to catch up with society, usually by watering down everything. Even good old fire-and-brimstone sermons are now passé ...

[Seth]

If you don't like Catholic orthodoxy and dogma, don't be a Catholic. Sounds pretty simple to me. Why you would bitch about how someone else runs their private club is a puzzlement.

Why? Because I was forced to attend this club for many years. Now that I'm out, I usually couldn't care less about what goes on at Sunday mass, but the irony in this story is inescapable.

There are apostates, heretics and dissenters in every religion, including Catholicism. Martin Luther was just such a dissenter, and he went on to form his own church in response to disagreement with the Pope, which is perfectly appropriate.

There are liberal, far-left, and overtly socialist/communist priests in the Catholic church. The American Council of Catholic Bishops is way liberal and butts heads with the Vatican on a regular basis over doctrinal issues. But the Pope is the spiritual head of the church and the Vicar of God and what he says, goes, like it or not.

Catholicism is not a democracy, and splinter sects and doctrinal dissenters are excommunicated from the church all the time. All that means is that they don't get support from the church, and may not call themselves "Catholics" any more. They are free, however, to believe and worship as they choose, just like Martin Luther did.

All true, but you see: I really just don't care ...

What an ....erudite...rebuttal.

There's no irony whatsoever in the story, it's just a bunch of dissident priests who are displaying disobedience to Catholic doctrine for reasons of their own, which appear to be a mix of procedural and political objections.

Irony is in the eye of the (otherwise disinterested) beholder. The irony as I see it is that they are claiming that a variation in the mass is sexist and elitist, whereas every variation I ever attended (and there were a great many) merited that description. And to think that they got rid of the Tridentine before I had a chance to experience it.

Sucks to be them, I guess, because the Pope is in charge, not them.

And if you were "forced" to attend services, then sue your parents, because they are the one's who did the "forcing," not the church.

My father is long since dead, so I guess I won't be suing him.

There's a legal term for this: estopple. It means "if you sit on your rights for too long, you lose them."

BTW, the Catholic church still controls the vast majority of the primary education system in this country, and exercises real power over who gets to go to its schools, and teaches in them. That's where a lot of the pressure for parents to raise their children "in the faith" comes from, so this is one thing that does exercise me. But I suppose you'll be telling me next that it's the fault of the populace for not demanding that this state of affairs be changed. And actually I'd agree with you - up to a point. So save your efforts and please don't bother ...

Yup, sounds like a political/social issue to me. Presumably Ireland still uses democratic processes to determine public policy, right? It's not a church-run theocracy and you have the right to vote, right? That being the case, your educational system, and all the rest, is an exercise in democracy. Presumably you are free to emigrate, right?

If you remained in the Catholic church for very long, you were "confirmed," which means that you were given the option to become a full practicing Catholic BY CHOICE.

Hmmm ... I was 11. Hey, maybe we should allow 11 year-olds to vote, drink, join the armed forces, etc. Confirmation was just a ritual, the next step in the tiresome list of Catholic sacraments. we all pretty much took it like that.

Choosing to be a full member of a religion that you are free to walk away from any time you like (and evidently you did) is entirely different from voting, drinking or serving in the military, which makes your statement a strawman fallacy.

Nobody held a gun to your head and required you to profess faith. And I'm betting that unlike Islam, nobody put a gun to your head when you decided not to be a Catholic any longer.

Man-up and take responsibility for your decisions, quit trying to blame Catholicism for your change of heart or what your parents may have done to you as a child.

Oh, give over and stop getting up on your high horse about it.

You first.

Stop trying to manufacture some sort of angst or unresolved issue on my part that simply doesn't exist.

I can only comment upon what is written here, and I see quite a lot of angst and hostility in evidence.

Church was just boring and annoying and a waste of time, especially since I usually had to dress up in my best clothes and fast for Sunday morning mass. But beyond that, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass, since I never really believed in any of the voodoo anyway - far too rational, even as a kid.

If you say so...

It looks to me that you're the one with the issues, if any superficial discussion or light-hearted commentary on this or any other matter causes you to get up on a high horse. Or flog a dead one ...

I take debate quite seriously, and I note that this thread is in the "serious stuff" section of the forum.

If unreason, illogic or other fallacies are presented, I have no compunctions about commenting upon them.