Had Christian friends over for dinner last night...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

...and they were delicious.

No, what I was going to say was this far more serious thing:

About two years ago these friends of ours lost their baby (very premmie), and last night when I was talking to the wife about the whole situation, she was saying that the baby's death caused her to really question her faith in god, and if it wasn't for the fact that her husband was so strong and unwavering in his faith, she may have lost it altogether.

Now, dreadful situation, but I was really thinking to myself it was quite a shame that she didn't just listen to her own reasoning and sod the husband. Am I a terrible person for having such thoughts?

No. You are absolutely not a bad person for thinking like that. Personally, I would have said something like, "You know my views on religion, but this is not the time to discuss them. I am really sorry for your loss."

That opens the door for future conversations without being pushy. It also sets you apart from religious proselytizers, that would certainly take such an opportunity to jump in with their woo and imaginary friends!

[Trolldor]

Actually, the correct thing to say is "I'm here for you if you need someone to talk to." If they bring it up with you, brilliant, if they don't, oh well. Don't try to capitalise on someone else's suffering, don't drop hints or open doors for conversations. Just be there for them.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Actually, the correct thing to say is "I'm here for you if you need someone to talk to." If they bring it up with you, brilliant, if they don't, oh well. Don't try to capitalise on someone else's suffering, don't drop hints or open doors for conversations. Just be there for them.

Which is different from what I said how? My suggestion dismissed a discussion of religion that the other person had started and went straight to sympathy. There was no capitalisation, no hints. The open door comes simply the fact that you care about them but have tacitly dismissed the religious discussion. If they wish to ask how an atheist copes with such an event, or question your disbelief any further, either then or later, that is their choice.

Personally, I never push my atheism down anyone's throat unless they begin a discussion of religion - after that, the gloves are off. In this circumstance, however, I would offer a chance for them to walk away by letting them know that my sympathy is more important to me than scoring ideological points.

[Trolldor]

Saying "You know my views on religion" is not what someone wants to hear. That is being pushy. You're bringing it up.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Saying "You know my views on religion" is not what someone wants to hear. That is being pushy. You're bringing it up.

And how else would you respond to "she was saying that the baby's death caused her to really question her faith in god, and if it wasn't for the fact that her husband was so strong and unwavering in his faith, she may have lost it altogether."

The 'pushy' response would be to press ones advantage and urge her to question her faith. The sympathetic response is to refuse to address the subject unless they really wanted to know how I, as an atheist, would cope with a similar tragedy. I am not 'bringing it up', I am offering a chance to drop the subject.

Wait a minute. Why am I arguing with you? You have never admitted you are wrong about anything in all the time I know you. Let me go find a thread about cheese. My posts stand for anyone that is actually interested in a discussion and not just being RIGHT!

[Trolldor]

Saying "You know my views on religion" is not what someone wants to hear. That is being pushy. You're bringing it up.

And how else would you respond to "she was saying that the baby's death caused her to really question her faith in god, and if it wasn't for the fact that her husband was so strong and unwavering in his faith, she may have lost it altogether."

The 'pushy' response would be to press ones advantage and urge her to question her faith. The sympathetic response is to refuse to address the subject unless they really wanted to know how I, as an atheist, would cope with a similar tragedy. I am not 'bringing it up', I am offering a chance to drop the subject.

Wait a minute. Why am I arguing with you? You have never admitted you are wrong about anything in all the time I know you. Let me go find a thread about cheese. My posts stand for anyone that is actually interested in a discussion and not just being RIGHT!

"Time I've known you" firstly, and secondly I can't "admit" I'm wrong unless I believe I am.
You honestly see nothing wrong with the first words out of your mouth being "You know my views on religion"? Especially when they, as Bolero has stated, don't actually know her views on religion?

[JimC]

Looking over the last few posts, THM and XC are really on the same page, by any logical analysis by a superior intelligence...

Young hominids, squabbling without reason, you are...

[Pappa]

After my mum died, I remember being at my brother's house for a drink one night. His wife had recently lost her dad too. Neither of them believe in god and had no religious upbringing whatsoever. However, my brother can be a sentimental sap... he asked me (pretty off-hand) if I thought our mum was up there somewhere, looking down on us. I responded quickly with, "NO! Of course not. How the fuck could that ever be possible? When you die, you die. She had a wonderful life, but now she's dead, there's no point pining for some never-never land". (Or words to that effect). They didn't say much other than they thought it could be possible (for there to be some kind of life hereafter). I realised I'd upset them though. My completely definite view was alien to them because they'd never really thought about the consequences of a fully materialistic universe... they're not into science, have never read about religion and are just ordinary people into watching TV, drinking, fucking, holidaying and being happy.

I forget that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about a lot of things I completely take for granted, and it means I sometimes say more than is acceptable to them because they see it as confrontational or needlessly demeaning (to religious or spiritual beliefs). It's something I've found often when talking about religion to very moderately religious people too (often on facebook).

[JimC]

After my mum died, I remember being at my brother's house for a drink one night. His wife had recently lost her dad too. Neither of them believe in god and had no religious upbringing whatsoever. However, my brother can be a sentimental sap... he asked me (pretty off-hand) if I thought our mum was up there somewhere, looking down on us. I responded quickly with, "NO! Of course not. How the fuck could that ever be possible? When you die, you die. She had a wonderful life, but now she's dead, there's no point pining for some never-never land". (Or words to that effect). They didn't say much other than they thought it could be possible (for there to be some kind of life hereafter). I realised I'd upset them though. My completely definite view was alien to them because they'd never really thought about the consequences of a fully materialistic universe... they're not into science, have never read about religion and are just ordinary people into watching TV, drinking, fucking, holidaying and being happy.

I forget that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about a lot of things I completely take for granted, and it means I sometimes say more than is acceptable to them because they see it as confrontational or needlessly demeaning (to religious or spiritual beliefs). It's something I've found often when talking about religion to very moderately religious people too (often on facebook).

It's funny, this. Sometimes I say to Bron "Wouldn't Dad (my Dad, who was really into taxonomy) just love the job David's got now (identifying invertebrates for the EPA)"

Of course, I mean that in a very theoretical sense, but it still seems worth uttering, somehow...

Perhaps I am just appreciating the link between the memories he has left us and the skills of his grandson...

[Pappa]

After my mum died, I remember being at my brother's house for a drink one night. His wife had recently lost her dad too. Neither of them believe in god and had no religious upbringing whatsoever. However, my brother can be a sentimental sap... he asked me (pretty off-hand) if I thought our mum was up there somewhere, looking down on us. I responded quickly with, "NO! Of course not. How the fuck could that ever be possible? When you die, you die. She had a wonderful life, but now she's dead, there's no point pining for some never-never land". (Or words to that effect). They didn't say much other than they thought it could be possible (for there to be some kind of life hereafter). I realised I'd upset them though. My completely definite view was alien to them because they'd never really thought about the consequences of a fully materialistic universe... they're not into science, have never read about religion and are just ordinary people into watching TV, drinking, fucking, holidaying and being happy.

I forget that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about a lot of things I completely take for granted, and it means I sometimes say more than is acceptable to them because they see it as confrontational or needlessly demeaning (to religious or spiritual beliefs). It's something I've found often when talking about religion to very moderately religious people too (often on facebook).

It's funny, this. Sometimes I say to Bron "Wouldn't Dad (my Dad, who was really into taxonomy) just love the job David's got now (identifying invertebrates for the EPA)"

Of course, I mean that in a very theoretical sense, but it still seems worth uttering, somehow...

Perhaps I am just appreciating the link between the memories he has left us and the skills of his grandson...

I do that too, but I think it is just about remembering someone and projecting how they would feel if they were still here to see it.

[Twoflower]

The death of my cousin was the final nail on my religious coffin, but the rest of my family coped by telling themselves he was in heaven watching over us. I never had the heart to tell them that sounded like utter bullshit. ( I was 11) They continued to push that he was still around in a spiritual sense by having a cake for him during my birthday party for two years until I told my parents I wasn't having any celebration of my birthday anymore cause it had gotten creepy, and saying that a hawk that lives near in the field behind my parents house was Trevor. I think death of someone you love very very much can push people in different directions, in my case it was a final affirmation that god is fake, and for the rest of my family it was a desperate jump in the other direction so they could tell themselves they would see him again.

[Svartalf]

Well, the death of my parents (dad when I was 8, mom when I was 17) were sort of the FIRST nail for me... took more years of my life being shit in spite of my trying to be a good boy to get me ready.

At a time, I even wondered if I did not have a vocation for the priesthood... and started a course of bible study to improve my knowledge and understanding of my faith... That's when I understood that Dog was an evil control freak (Adam, Eve and the snake, Job), that Jesus was anything except Messiah (compare what'(s announced in OT with what's fulfilled in NT and later history), and that chretinity was absurdity heaped on falsehood.

[Bolero]

After my mum died, I remember being at my brother's house for a drink one night. His wife had recently lost her dad too. Neither of them believe in god and had no religious upbringing whatsoever. However, my brother can be a sentimental sap... he asked me (pretty off-hand) if I thought our mum was up there somewhere, looking down on us. I responded quickly with, "NO! Of course not. How the fuck could that ever be possible? When you die, you die. She had a wonderful life, but now she's dead, there's no point pining for some never-never land". (Or words to that effect). They didn't say much other than they thought it could be possible (for there to be some kind of life hereafter). I realised I'd upset them though. My completely definite view was alien to them because they'd never really thought about the consequences of a fully materialistic universe... they're not into science, have never read about religion and are just ordinary people into watching TV, drinking, fucking, holidaying and being happy.

I forget that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about a lot of things I completely take for granted, and it means I sometimes say more than is acceptable to them because they see it as confrontational or needlessly demeaning (to religious or spiritual beliefs). It's something I've found often when talking about religion to very moderately religious people too (often on facebook).

Since re-discovering my atheist self recently, and consequently forming a new and exciting interest in science, I think I behave/think a lot how you describe.

Case in point: came in to work really excited today because upon hearing a few quotes from Stephen Hawking's new book on the radio, I was really touched/happy/thrilled that scientists are actually now able to say that they can explain the origins of the universe without needing a creator. Awesome awesome awesome!!! I thought, and proceded to tell my workmates about it. A couple of them enthused with me, but mostly they just went "THAT excites you? You really need to get a life." or "If people need god, let them believe what they want."

Don't you people realise the implications?!

Oh well, that's why I come here, I guess.

[Pappa]

Since re-discovering my atheist self recently, and consequently forming a new and exciting interest in science, I think I behave/think a lot how you describe.

Case in point: came in to work really excited today because upon hearing a few quotes from Stephen Hawking's new book on the radio, I was really touched/happy/thrilled that scientists are actually now able to say that they can explain the origins of the universe without needing a creator. Awesome awesome awesome!!! I thought, and proceded to tell my workmates about it. A couple of them enthused with me, but mostly they just went "THAT excites you? You really need to get a life." or "If people need god, let them believe what they want."

Don't you people realise the implications?!

Oh well, that's why I come here, I guess.

I've done exactly the same sorts of things.... though I learned (the hard way) that hanging out with a bunch of die-hard atheists online can actually make matters worse. If you're surrounded by people who only reinforce your ideas about atheism/materialism/nihilism/etc. then it can become easier to make those sorts of off-the-cuff remarks to "normal people".

I think I've finally found a happy medium for me, but it took a year or two to get here. I'm as happy an atheist/materialist/nihilist as you're likely to get (in my default state anyway), but I try to use a bit more caution when enthusing my delight in science and lack of belief with ordinary people. Mind you, I'd struggle not to get massively overenthusiastic about it if someone asked me about The Selfish Gene or similar. But surely, it's fair game if they ask?

[Feck]

I have still to learn how to say "Well ok if it helps you......" rather than "but that's not really true is it ?......."