Belgium rules!

[Trolldor]

It's not a win for freedom of expression.

That depends on what you define as freedom of expression. I don't include conditioning girls to treat their entire lives as a sin, that they're worthless, that if they don't cover themselves from head to toe they will destroy civilisation as we know it. That's called brainwashing and oppression.

[RuleBritannia]

It's not a win for freedom of female oppression and religious bigotry.

I don't get it? Are you say it is a win for "freedom of female oppression and religious bigotry" or not?

[RuleBritannia]

It's not a win for freedom of expression.

That depends on what you define as freedom of expression. I don't include conditioning girls to treat their entire lives as a sin, that they're worthless, that if they don't cover themselves from head to toe they will destroy civilisation as we know it. That's called brainwashing and oppression.

I agree, that is brainwashing and oppression, but banning the burqa doesn't solve the problem, and only creates potential new ones. It's a typical political reaction to erase the symptoms that you can see, while ignoring the causes which you can't.

[PsychoSerenity]

It's not a win for freedom of expression.

Agreed. The law doesn't ban the burka, it bans anything that covers your face in public.

What if somebody is cold and wants to cover their face with a scarf? The law seems to be totally contradictory -

The legislation does not apply to headscarves, but will make it illegal to wear any garment concealing the whole face or making it unrecognisable.

What if you want to wear a fancy dress ninja costume? Would that be banned too?

What about the phone-jacker guy? Would he get arrested?

[Deep Sea Isopod]

It's not a win for freedom of female oppression and religious bigotry.

I don't get it? Are you say it is a win for "freedom of female oppression and religious bigotry" or not?

Not.

[Trolldor]

It's not a win for freedom of expression.

That depends on what you define as freedom of expression. I don't include conditioning girls to treat their entire lives as a sin, that they're worthless, that if they don't cover themselves from head to toe they will destroy civilisation as we know it. That's called brainwashing and oppression.

I agree, that is brainwashing and oppression, but banning the burqa doesn't solve the problem, and only creates potential new ones. It's a typical political reaction to erase the symptoms that you can see, while ignoring the causes which you can't.

The burqa is not a symptom, it is one of the key devices in oppression.

[RuleBritannia]

It's not a win for freedom of expression.

That depends on what you define as freedom of expression. I don't include conditioning girls to treat their entire lives as a sin, that they're worthless, that if they don't cover themselves from head to toe they will destroy civilisation as we know it. That's called brainwashing and oppression.

I agree, that is brainwashing and oppression, but banning the burqa doesn't solve the problem, and only creates potential new ones. It's a typical political reaction to erase the symptoms that you can see, while ignoring the causes which you can't.

The burqa is not a symptom, it is one of the key devices in oppression.

It is a tool used to express oppression, it indicates the presence of oppression, it is not the cause of oppression and is therefore a symptom.

[Trolldor]

No, it is a key item and stout contributor, or do you not read much about Islam?

[RuleBritannia]

No, it is a key item and stout contributor, or do you not read much about Islam?

The burqa is inanimate object, banning it doesn't eliminate a person's desire to be oppressive, the ban will only move that person's oppressive actions to another forum. The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

[PsychoSerenity]

No, it is a key item and stout contributor, or do you not read much about Islam?

The burqa is inanimate object, banning it doesn't eliminate a person's desire to be oppressive, the ban will only move that person's oppressive actions to another forum. The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

Exactly. And in the mean time all the ban does is create more oppression, and put the women in the very difficult position of "who am I most afraid of?".

[Deep Sea Isopod]

It is a tool used to express oppression, it indicates the presence of oppression,

Therefore it has no place in modern Western society.

No, it is a key item and stout contributor, or do you not read much about Islam?

The burqa is inanimate object, banning it doesn't eliminate a person's desire to be oppressive, the ban will only move that person's oppressive actions to another forum. The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

Banning guns doesn't eliminate a person's desire to kill.

[RuleBritannia]

It is a tool used to express oppression, it indicates the presence of oppression,

Therefore it has no place in modern Western society.

I agree that it shouldn't be in our society, but banning doesn't solve any problems and can only create new ones.

No, it is a key item and stout contributor, or do you not read much about Islam?

The burqa is inanimate object, banning it doesn't eliminate a person's desire to be oppressive, the ban will only move that person's oppressive actions to another forum. The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

Banning guns doesn't eliminate a person's desire to kill.

I don't advocate banning guns either.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

I agree that it shouldn't be in our society, but banning doesn't solve any problems and can only create new ones...............I don't advocate banning guns either.

How about not banning the use of Asbestos or CFC's? Let's just educate people of the harm they can do.
Slavery, too!

The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

Educating fundies against their beliefs?

[redunderthebed]

The removal of those ideas that women are not equal to men can only come from education.

Educating fundies against their beliefs?

It will mean the fundies will just lock the women who wear this burqa in the house. Whilst i don't agree with it the fundies who do this the burqa is the *only* way a women gets to leave the house and Belgium (and France) is essentially dooming those women to staying in the house 24/7 and further there oppression because this will not change there ways and probably entrench their beliefs (i would imagine many of the fundies already have a siege mentality already and this would of exacerbated it).

I think why many people object to this whole thing is because their religion is in there face and runs against the whole "keep religion to yourself" thing that happens in western societies apart from the USA.I can understand the reasoning behind this ban but its more complicated than they put it to be and to the minority who wear it will make things worse not better.

I laugh at this whole "western society" thingo we seem to always trot it out when we want to deny freedoms to backward brown people.

[RuleBritannia]

I agree that it shouldn't be in our society, but banning doesn't solve any problems and can only create new ones...............I don't advocate banning guns either.

How about not banning the use of Asbestos or CFC's? Let's just educate people of the harm they can do.
Slavery, too!

Banning asbestos, CFC's and salavery directly eliminates their respective problems, because they are the cause of the problems. Banning guns and the burqa does not, because they are not the cause of the problems, they are the symptoms, the causes are social.