Secular values, how would you summarise them?

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Theophilus
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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Theophilus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:27 am

born-again-atheist wrote:That's like Saying Capitalism is a Theocratic regime because America invokes God.
No, capitalism may be secular or theocratic. Marxism and the Russian and Chinese communist regimes were definitely secular and left no room whatsoever for theocracy (divine guidance of government).

But perhaps I can qualify: Marxism and the Russian and Chinese communist regimes were most very definitely secular (and I really can't see how anyone could see otherwise). But that does not mean all secularists are Marxist (which was what made me make the point originally, that the common form of secularism in the past has been tied up with a communal politic, but that seems to have been dropped).
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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:31 am

Except there are Christian Marxists.

The employ of secularism was not the defining point of those systems, therefore they are not secular regimes, not philosophically. They contained elements of secularism, but also a lot of other elements and factors, some of which played significantly larger roles.

If you mean they were 'secular regimes' as one element, then yes, if you mean as a defining element, then no.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Theophilus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:35 am

born-again-atheist wrote:Except there are Christian Marxists.
I would say they must be confused people. I can see how one may be a Christian Communist or a Christian Socialist (indeed, I am probably the latter), but Marx saw religion as a product of society (“The religious world is but the reflex of the real world”) and not the product of a divine being.
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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:37 am

It's the same with Christian Feminists. They'll ignore what they need to.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:48 am

Theophilus wrote:Of course Marxism was a secular politic, and Russia/China secular regimes. They were based on entirely non-religious grounds, and went as far as rejecting any role of religion in government (and progressively suppressed religion in society-at-large). They are the very epitome of secularism.
Hardly. One party to bind them? Communism was basically another dogma to control the masses - craftily used in place of religion for exactly that purpose. North Korea takes it a step further and reintroduces a deity.

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by virphen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:22 am

Theophilus wrote:Of course Marxism was a secular politic, and Russia/China secular regimes. They were based on entirely non-religious grounds, and went as far as rejecting any role of religion in government (and progressively suppressed religion in society-at-large). They are the very epitome of secularism.
Absolutely not. There is nothing secular about attempting to abolish existing religions like happened in those countries. That is not secularism.

Secularism is merely keeping religion and superstition out of the public domain. Attempting to eradicate religions is just as contrary to secularism as attempting to impose them.

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:26 am

Of course it wasn't secularism, they weren't really Scottish either.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Theophilus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:32 am

From the Oxford English dictionary....

Secularism: The doctrine that morality should be based solely on regard to the well-being of mankind in the present life, to the exclusion of all considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state.

The term was first used, according to the OED in 1851 by G. J. Holyoake who described secularism as "the practical Philosophy of the People" (does that phrase ring any bells?).

So, does anybody want to argue Marxism and the Russian/Chinese communist states included considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state? Examples of such considerations would be helpful to disabuse me of my current opinion that these regimes were indeed secular.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible" St. Thomas Aquinas

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:34 am

I see nowhere in that statement referencing state control or shared control over property, nothing about the rise of workers, and so on and so forth.

Oh, and also, North korea. It has an immortal ruler who can influence the weather.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:38 am

Theophilus wrote:From the Oxford English dictionary....

Secularism: The doctrine that morality should be based solely on regard to the well-being of mankind in the present life, to the exclusion of all considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state.

So, does anybody want to argue Marxism and the Russian/Chinese communist states included considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state? Examples of such considerations would be helpful to disabuse me of my current opinion that these regimes were indeed secular.
Point conceded!! :hehe:

My argument was that the form of secular state incorporated in the regimes you specified had a number of significant similarities to religion - I might have argued that the government was its own religion. You're quite right about the dictionary definition though!

As to the OP: Do as little harm as possible, and do it without recourse to dogma.

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by virphen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:39 am

Theophilus wrote: So, does anybody want to argue Marxism and the Russian/Chinese communist states included considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state? Examples of such considerations would be helpful to disabuse me of my current opinion that these regimes were indeed secular.
Yeah, I do. They may have not been explicitly theistic, but both Stalin's Russia and Mao's China adopted religious techniques and developed a cult of the almighty leader. They had more in common with theocracies than secular democracies. Not that there really is such a thing as a secular democracy, although some places are getting closer to it than others.

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:40 am

As In said, if they were 'secular regimes' in that they did not employ supernatural religion, then yes. If they were secular regimes philosophically, then no. Theo has failed to clarify which he means.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Animavore » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:43 am

These are the principles of Humanism as laid out in the Amsterdam Deceleration.
1. Humanism is ethical. It affirms the worth, dignity and autonomy of the individual and the right of every human being to the greatest possible freedom compatible with the rights of others. Humanists have a duty of care to all of humanity including future generations. Humanists believe that morality is an intrinsic part of human nature based on understanding and a concern for others, needing no external sanction
2. Humanism is rational. It seeks to use science creatively, not destructively. Humanists believe that the solutions to the world's problems lie in human thought and action rather than divine intervention. Humanism advocates the application of the methods of science and free inquiry to the problems of human welfare. But Humanists also believe that the application of science and technology must be tempered by human values. Science gives us the means but human values must propose the ends.
3. Humanism supports democracy and human rights. Humanism aims at the fullest possible development of every human being. It holds that democracy and human development are matters of right. The principles of democracy and human rights can be applied to many human relationships and are not restricted to methods of government.
4. Humanism insists that personal liberty must be combined with social responsibility. Humanism ventures to build a world on the idea of the free person responsible to society, and recognises our dependence on and responsibility for the natural world. Humanism is undogmatic, imposing no creed upon its adherents. It is thus committed to education free from indoctrination.
5. Humanism is a response to the widespread demand for an alternative to dogmatic religion. The world's major religions claim to be based on revelations fixed for all time, and many seek to impose their world-views on all of humanity. Humanism recognises that reliable knowledge of the world and ourselves arises through a continuing process. of observation, evaluation and revision.
6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment.
7. Humanism is a lifestance aiming at the maximum possible fulfilment through the cultivation of ethical and creative living and offers an ethical and rational means of addressing the challenges of our times. Humanism can be a way of life for everyone everywhere.
The main difference with Communism is that it doesn't claim to be a perfect solution. Communism made too many promises it couldn't keep and was a totally failed project. I think of the Communist government as a bunch of men who thought they knew what was best for the people.
Humanism is completely in line with democracy and separation of church and state as well as capitalism. It is more like the American Liberal way than anything else.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Theophilus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:47 am

born-again-atheist wrote:Theo has failed to clarify which he means.
Goodness me BAA, you set high standards :mrgreen: . I gave you the Oxford English Dictionary definition (the full one with references to the first use of the word, not even the concise dictionary version) so I'm not sure how much more clarification you expect.
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Re: Secular values, how would you summarise them?

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:48 am

Again, do you mean they employed secularism as an element or as a key part of the philosophy? It's a very simple question.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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