Muslim Ban Over Handshake. Whaddayareckon Liberals?

[Exi5tentialist]

So it's a right-wing echo chamber now? Man, I'm confused. Seth reckons it's a left wing echo chamber.

You see? You don't keep to the subject being discussed. You try to derail the conversation into IRRELEVANT bickering about labels. The fact is, you're not confused at all. You just don't like people having strong anti-islamophobic opinions and you will do anything to derail them.

[pErvinalia]

Who's ignoring the west's bombing? All of us left wingers (sorry, right wingers) comment on it regularly.

[pErvinalia]

So it's a right-wing echo chamber now? Man, I'm confused. Seth reckons it's a left wing echo chamber.

You see? You don't keep to the subject being discussed. You try to derail the conversation into IRRELEVANT bickering about labels. The fact is, you're not confused at all. You just don't like people having strong anti-islamophobic opinions and you will do anything to derail them.

I've specifically addressed your capitalist/economic argument, despite you deserving zero respect for your ridiculous ranting and raving, and you ignored it. So fuck off.

[Exi5tentialist]

Who's ignoring the west's bombing? All of us left wingers (sorry, right wingers) comment on it regularly.

Well, why don't you fucking mention it in this topic then, seeing as you're so bloody good at it? Or do you have to be dragged kicking and screaming into paying lip service to it?

And no, you are definitely NOT a left winger.

[Exi5tentialist]

I've specifically addressed your capitalist/economic argument, despite you deserving zero respect for your ridiculous ranting and raving, and you ignored it. So fuck off.

Back to a bickering derail I see. "I've already addressed it". "Read my posts". "I'm not saying it again". But never a fucking link. Never a fucking reference. Just the usual unreferenced bickering. Nice derail. Get off the subject being discussed as quickly as possible, why don't you?

[Animavore]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

http://observer.com/2016/04/why-ayaan-h ... -liberals/

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

[Hermit]

I'll challenge any argument about islam being the cause of women's oppression in muslim countries. [...] ALL have long histories of women's oppression and gender segregation.

Until quite recently there used to be not a lot of difference between how Muslim societies treated its women and how Christian societies did. Beginning with universal suffrage campaigns this has changed fairly rapidly on legislative, economic and to a lesser extent informal levels. While women under capitalism are still not on an equal footing to men, it would be a bit disingenuous to pretend that on average women in Islamic nations are not much worse off than women in secular capitalist ones with a Christian background. I do side with Richard Dawkins when he got sarcastic with someone who skated over that difference.

• Dear Muslima
  Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and … yawn … don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
  Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so …
  And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
  Richard

So, yes it is completely racist for anyone to refer to "muslim countries".

Anyone? Fuck off! Muslim countries are countries where Islam is predominant. While too many people use 'Muslim' as a racist slur, I do not, and I am certain that most members of this forum don't regard it as a denomination of race either. Even the most rabid racist is unlikely to claim that the Muslims living in the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, Indonesia, are of the same race as those of Egypt, Sudan or Turkey. And that's ignoring the fact that Indonesia itself is not of one homogenetic ethnicity. It's biggest one, the Javanese, are not even the majority of the population.

It is a pity that so few of the vast majority in every country are not aware that they have more in common with the vast majority of all other countries than the upper crusts of their own that govern them. That said, if I were a woman I'd much rather live in Israel than any Islamic country (even Turkey, the most moderate of them all).

Every diatribe against "muslim countries" feeds the militaristic propaganda that they are inferior and that we need to exert our civilised, imperialist bomb-ridden civilisation on them. To carry on slating islamic culture while at the same time ignoring the West's bombing campaign in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria and Libya is just stupid.

There is no excuse for ignoring the West's bombing.

I am bored with people who push it aside as a factor in the attitude of the world's muslims towards the west. I mean how fucking hypocritical - criticising the people of Afghanistan for upholding an oppressive religion when our original intention was to bomb them back to the stone age anyway. Narratives against islam have the sole, solitary purpose of anaesthetising opposition to the West's next bombing campaign. The West's fascist militarism won't stop until the fascist denigration of islam stops.

How is that supposed to be a reply to my post? Looks more like you used it to continue riding your hobby horse.

I replied to your statement that "it is completely racist for anyone to refer to "muslim countries". Nothing in your next post gets anywhere near that part of it. Then I went on to poohpooh the idea of 'Muslim' or 'Jewish' being essentially denominators of race. Silence from your quarter. In the end I stated that if I were a woman I'd much rather live in Israel than any Islamic nation. The "Dear Muslima" letter was an oblique hint as to why. Diatribe? I think not.

[Exi5tentialist]

You can't claim in the same sentence that the problem is both capitalism and economic deprivation.

What the fuck are you talking about? Capitalism thrives on economic deprivation. Do you think it's the purpose of economic competition to make everybody rich? Is there not a smidgeon of winners and losers in your analyss?

Stopping half the potential workforce from selling their labour is anathema to capitalism.

What absolute shit. Destroying your competitors' economies is the very basis of capitalism. Why do you think Iraq was bombed to smithereens? Because of something Saddam Hussein did? Jeez, grow up.

Not to mention, oppression pre-dates capitalism.

So fucking what?

So the same argument he uses against Islam - that it post-dates misogyny - can be used for capitalism.

I don't even know what you're supposed to be talking about here.

[Exi5tentialist]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

I agree.

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

No, agreed. It's the next best thing.

[Exi5tentialist]

In the end I stated that if I were a woman I'd much rather live in Israel than any Islamic nation

Oh yes, so would I. Yes, by a million miles, I'd rather live in a country that has the massive supported of the world's leading superpower than in one being bombed by one. Oh, yes, I totally agree.

[pErvinalia]

I've specifically addressed your capitalist/economic argument, despite you deserving zero respect for your ridiculous ranting and raving, and you ignored it. So fuck off.

Back to a bickering derail I see. "I've already addressed it". "Read my posts". "I'm not saying it again". But never a fucking link. Never a fucking reference. Just the usual unreferenced bickering. Nice derail. Get off the subject being discussed as quickly as possible, why don't you?

It's on the last page, ffs.

[Animavore]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

I agree.

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

No, agreed. It's the next best thing.

It's nothing similar at all. Criticising Islam is no different to criticising any other religion or belief. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed.

[pErvinalia]

Who's ignoring the west's bombing? All of us left wingers (sorry, right wingers) comment on it regularly.

Well, why don't you fucking mention it in this topic then, seeing as you're so bloody good at it? Or do you have to be dragged kicking and screaming into paying lip service to it?

Because it's got nothing to do with the topic of the thread, nor anything to do with why any group of people treat women badly.

And no, you are definitely NOT a left winger.

I certainly am. What I'm not is an authoritarian leftist like you. I'm a libertarian socialist (ideologically).

[JimC]

I'm sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali is just being Islamophobic when she criticises the rampant misogyny of Islam.

http://observer.com/2016/04/why-ayaan-h ... -liberals/

Criticisng Islam is not the same as supporting the bombing of Muslim countries by post-colonialist countries.

I have consistently stated that too many right-wing racist groups in the west use criticism of islam as a front for racism.

Exi seems to think that this means one is never, ever allowed to criticise this misogynist violent religion at all, because doing so is automatically racist.
Jihadists the world over are rubbing their hands together with glee when the politically correct left in the west gives them such a get-out-of-jail-free card...

[pErvinalia]

You can't claim in the same sentence that the problem is both capitalism and economic deprivation.

What the fuck are you talking about? Capitalism thrives on economic deprivation. Do you think it's the purpose of economic competition to make everybody rich? Is there not a smidgeon of winners and losers in your analyss?

Stopping half the potential workforce from selling their labour is anathema to capitalism.

What absolute shit. Destroying your competitors' economies is the very basis of capitalism. Why do you think Iraq was bombed to smithereens? Because of something Saddam Hussein did? Jeez, grow up.

How does western economic colonialism have anything to do with muslim people treating women like shit? You are making zero sense.

Not to mention, oppression pre-dates capitalism.

So fucking what?

It's a shame you can only ingest one sentence at a time. I explained below what is what.

So the same argument he uses against Islam - that it post-dates misogyny - can be used for capitalism.

I don't even know what you're supposed to be talking about here.

Stop ranting and raving and start thinking. You said that we shouldn't blame Islam for the treatment of women by Muslims, as misogyny pre-dates Islam. The same fucking argument can apply to capitalism.