Are People Who Believe in God Stupid?

[DawkBoy]

Gosh, DawkBoy. How is it that you can't see the futility in what you are doing?

We all know about religion, so it's not educational.

Chuck isn't a real person (sorry, baby cakes), so he doesn't care what you write anyway.

So I guess the best advice is not replying to/ignoring Chuck.

Then I suggest you change the name and sub title of this forum, because you do not deserve illustrious descriptors like "rational" and "atheist".

[Chuck Jones]

Dork, no one cares about what I said to you. I say what I like and I like what I say, and if you ain't down with that then you know where the door is. I can get away with murder here and if you stick around long enough there's gonna be one.

[Thinking Aloud]

Coming into the discussion late, as far as the OP goes, they are only stupid insofar as they have fallen prey to the inherent leanings of the human mind to see patterns where none exist. Which I wouldn't call stupid, merely ignorant of the facts.

I was watching the debate last night at La Ciudad de las Ideas between Hitch / Harris / Dennett and Boteach / D'Souza / Taleb and predictably Dinesh D'Souza's ridiculous reasoning that there is evidence for God, or the afterlife in the case of that particular discussion, is based on sheer ignorance of the reality of the universe and a complete misunderstanding of how science views that evidence and, by extension, the universe.

Theists know stuff that you don't. You're ignorant, theists are clever. You shut up now.

What do theists know that we don't know? That Jewish zombies exist? Or what about you, the panamtheist (a Jumbo theist?)? My children watch the Firebird suite on Fantasia 2000 and they know that Mother Nature is a metaphor. Wow - you are an adult who thinks it is real! So you shut up. Ignoramus.

We have a rule here about not making personal attacks - that last might be taken as one. Lowers the tone, you know.

Are you for real? Have you seen what Chuck Jones has said to me?

Not much of it, I'm afraid. Nevertheless, as you are relatively new, I was just pointing it out. If he does the same to you, you're at liberty to report it - as is anyone else, for that matter.

Oh - I am for real, I'm afraid.

[Robert_S]

Theists know stuff that you don't. You're ignorant, theists are clever. You shut up now.

What do theists know that we don't know? That Jewish zombies exist? Or what about you, the panamtheist (a Jumbo theist?)? My children watch the Firebird suite on Fantasia 2000 and they know that Mother Nature is a metaphor. Wow - you are an adult who thinks it is real! So you shut up. Ignoramus.

We have a rule here about not making personal attacks - that last might be taken as one. Lowers the tone, you know.

Are you for real? Have you seen what Chuck Jones has said to me?

Not much of it, I'm afraid. Nevertheless, as you are relatively new, I was just pointing it out. If he does the same to you, you're at liberty to report it - as is anyone else, for that matter.

Oh - I am for real, I'm afraid.

+1 What he said about the report button.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coitu...I mean coito...

Ok, what I believe in is a creator, although not a creator-out-of-nothing, as is traditionally thought of as being a creator. What I believe in is a manifestor, ie the universe is a manifestation of a conscious manifestor. So, what I beliebve in is both a "creator" and conscious. Surely that counts as a god, doesn't it? If not, I don't mind, but I call it god, because I can't think of anything else to call it. You do realise that within christianity, islam and other religions, there are panentheistic traditions too.

Not really, because there is no personification. Yours is just an amorphous force. It may not even be supernatural. Saying "creator" or "manifestor" merely suggests an impetus - a something from which this all comes. It might be something incomprehensible or never imagined in the mind of men, and it isn't even be a "being" in the sense of a distinct entity from everything else - it IS everything else, and itself.

Yes, there are panentheistic traditions in Christianity, but the vast majority of Christian traditions teach that such persons are nonbelievers, and damned. There are very few people in the world who even know the word "panentheistic." Out of 2 billion Christians, the vast majority know little or nothing about their own denominations - if you poll 100 Christians and ask them what panentheism is, I bet it's fairly likely that at most 1, probably 0, will know what it is.

To most Christians, Muslims and Jews, you are as bad as an atheist. You're o.k. in the Buddhists and Taoists books...but,then again, so are we!

[Coito ergo sum]

Dork, no one cares about what I said to you. I say what I like and I like what I say, and if you ain't down with that then you know where the door is. I can get away with murder here and if you stick around long enough there's gonna be one.

Wow, that's a tad extreme - personal attack and threat of violence.

[Coito ergo sum]

Kabbalists and Gnostics it's still a bunch of hippy Woo even if it does have some history .

So let them be happy in their woo. You never know, they might help you out if you're in a spot of bother. Just be nice to people, regardless of their beliefs.

Nobody is stopping them. If "letting them be happy" means we don't get to express our views with equal dignity, then I'll have to pass.

Most people will help out, regardless of religious views.

I'm always nice to people, regardless of views, until it's time to not be nice.

[Chuck Jones]

Coitu...I mean coito...

So how would you class what I believe in? It's conscious, it's the source of everything, and it is and transcends everything. Many atheists would say that it is a god.

[DawkBoy]

Coitu...I mean coito...

So how would you class what I believe in? It's conscious, it's the source of everything, and it is and transcends everything. Many atheists would say that it is bullshit.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coitu...I mean coito...

So how would you class what I believe in? It's conscious, it's the source of everything, and it is and transcends everything. Many atheists would say that it is a god.

It sounds amorphous and undefined. What I mean is that in relation to any other god out there, your kind is not very goddish. I mean - Apollo, Zeus, Yawheh, Allah - these are "beings" they are personifications. Yours is more like the Force in Star Wars. Not much of a god, and certainly if you sat down and laid out what your god is, and said that you don't believe in resurrections and hells and Prophets and all that, you'd be lumped in with us atheists quick as a flash by most theists.

Face it - you're closer to us than you are to theists. Like deists - you know - they sort of escape criticism by suggesting that they believe in "something" - a "prime mover" that started it all - Christians sigh and say - "o.k., o.k. - whew - at least he believes in God." But, of course, a deist doesn't really believe in God - not "God." They believe in a prime mover, and one (or more) whose characteristics are unknown - might be a being - might not - might be just the "laws of nature" - who knows - may be completely non-supernatural. They aren't Christians, they don't believe in any "God" of the capital-G sense, and they reject all the resurrections, virginal births, revelations to prophets and all that. They are hardly discernible from atheists in actual practice - since their "deity" is irrelevant to the operation of the universe.

Similarly, belief in a panentheistic deity, or a pantheistic deity, is also hardly discernible in actual practice. Panentheists and pantheists deny almost everything about all theisms, and the so-called "god" panentheists and pantheists believe in is worlds different from the Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Ancient Greek/Norse/Germanic/Mayan/Aztec/Native American gods and goddesses as to be unrecognizable and not very godlike.

Panentheism generally views "god" not even as a "creator" but an "eternal animating force." The Force is strong in this one.....

[Chuck Jones]

Yes, coito, you're probably right. Maybe. I'm not sure. I'd like to see a discussion between atheists who define what I believe in as god and atheists who don't. Let's arrange that. I'll make tea and biscuits for all.





Dorko, I define you as bullshit, and it's time to flush the toilet, so sling your hook. I'm top dog around here, and don't you forget it.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yes, coito, you're probably right. Maybe. I'm not sure. I'd like to see a discussion between atheists who define what I believe in as god and atheists who don't. Let's arrange that. I'll make tea and biscuits for all.

I'm only going by what panentheism is in general. I can't read your mind. You're free to call anything you like "god." But, taking a different example - people get confused when a pantheist calls what they believe in "god," because the word "god" comes loaded with lots of concepts. If a pantheist says, "I believe in the universe, and the laws that govern it," which is what pantheists generally call "god," then theists would generally say - "that's not really a god, that's just the universe." And, the pantheist would say "yes, that's true, but I call that god."

See what I mean? Your beliefs are far closer to the pantheist concept than the monotheistic or polytheistic concept.

[Chuck Jones]

Exactly, words are often loaded with concepts. So instead of superficially and automatically judging what someone says by those concepts, they should be judged on what they mean by their use of the words.

Time for a new thread.

[Coito ergo sum]

Exactly, words are often loaded with concepts. So instead of superficially and automatically judging what someone says by those concepts, they should be judged on what they mean by their use of the words.

Time for a new thread.

What you describe doesn't sound very goddish, in terms of "a supreme being - creator and ruler of the universe" (panentheism does not posit a creator necessarily but an "animating force"), and it doesn't sound like "one of several deities presiding over worldly affairs." Those are the two main definitions of God and gods. Yours isn't that. Yours is some amorphous animating force that doesn't necessarily "rule" or even intervene in human affairs at all... Hardly worth the name...

[Chuck Jones]

Coito, what I believe in doesn't interevene in the universe. It is the universe. The universe is conscious.