The pointlesness of trying to support religion with science.

[hiyymer]

The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science

The problem is the presumption that life is rational. Give it up. Then you see that it's not other people who are stupid. They know what they want and they don't have to have reasons. That's living.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wasn't arguing that one was better than the other and female circumcision is FUCKING horrific ( I wouldn't want to beat the shit out of a parent if they said they had circumcised a boy and I would a girl ) but female circumcision is not just the removal of the clitoris ,and in fact it is the other things that are done that makes it a serious (ly harmful) procedure . And I would disagree that circumcision of boys is not meant to de-sexualize them .

I can't easily say all male circumcisions aren't for purposes of desexualization. But I can say that rites of passage rituals are done to acknowledge masculinity and maturity in boys. I think in the boneheaded ways of the ignorant, Most parents are just doing what was done to them as a way to say "ata boy". I think it's mutilation by negligence in a way.

Why do the religious nutbars have this obsession that REALLY bothers them - the notion that somewhere, someone else is ENJOYING sex, and they MUST put a stop to it.

Because sex is humanity at its most uncontrolled, most animalistic, sweatiest, I-don't-give-a-fuck-about-religionest best; and because it is an almost undeniable urge.

To be able to make people feel guilty about what is after all a biological drive -- to make them feel guilty for being human, fer chrissakes -- is a potent lever of power. The priest is assured a line at the confessional, and a full donation bowl.

[charlou]

And I would disagree that circumcision of boys is not meant to de-sexualize them .

Now that I know more about it, I know this is the underlying reason for male circumcision in many cases, but not all. In my case and that of the in-laws who persuaded me at the time, it was two things: hygiene and the importance of 'looking like dad'. I was naive enough to accept those as practical reasons and allow it to happen to my first son.

I was unaware at the time, but have come to understand since, that even if the rationale for circumcision has nothing to do with sex on the surface of it (hygiene, rite of passage, like father like son, etc), fundamentally it does. Also, I now know a consequence of circumcision is reduced sexual pleasure and function, for both the owner of the penis, and for his partner/s. There are deeper social and psychological ramefications that are complex and extensive, I think.

I was involved in the lengthy debate about circumcision at RDF a couple of years ago, arguing alongside LP against it. I said to her at the time, and still think, she should write a book, such is the extent of her knowledge, enthusiasm and skilled articulation of the subject.

[camoguard]

That's what I think happened to me and to the firstborns of several coworkers of mine. It may have started as a way to control people but the motivation of modern parents is more benign. It still sucks though. People should still learn to leave their kids alone in that regard.

[charlou]

People should still learn to leave their kids alone in that regard.

Yes ... Ignorance and naivete, stubborn adherence to traditional notions, etc, do not good decisions make.

[egbert]

Likewise, thumpa.

What if this was a rite of passage?

WARNING: Not for the faint of heart

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Is it a greater or lessor mutilation than female circumcision?

Ask the victim?

I don't think it's an either/or thing.

Are you out of your mind, wanting to ask a woman what she thinks about a guy hacking up her genitalia?

If it's being done for the GLORY of God, what's the problem?

[camoguard]

If God isn't going to offer me one of his orifices, it's a big problem. He said I have to clip it before I stick it and I'm ready for some God sex.

[charlou]

If God isn't going to offer me one of his orifices, it's a big problem. He said I have to clip it before I stick it and I'm ready for some God sex.