Do you hate Islam? mk II (mod split)

[JOZeldenrust]

Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.

It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.

On the shoulders of giants. It wasn't Islamic Culture that was at the height of the world, it was the culture they grew from.

I think you have an oversimplified idea of history. Societies aren't distinct, neatly defined structures. They affect eachother, they have fringes where new or exotic traits are integrated into the society, they're divided by social, economic, ethnic or ideological boundaries. Sure, muslims in Spain and north Africa had a lot more to work with then most other societies at that time, but that fact was at least in part a result of Islam.

Because Islam is so focussed on acurate preservation of the Quran, muslims developed an infrastructure for preserving thought in general, much like the Catholic church preserved thought in Christian Europe. Other then Christianity, Islam in Spain and North Africa not only had a scholastic tradition, but also an empirical tradition, which I admit wasn't a direct result of Islam, but the religion at least influenced its emergence. Because of this empirical work, muslims in Spain expanded their knowledge about the world, becoming the most advanced society of the time.

Islam certainly wasn't the only factor at play, but it was a factor, and an important one at that, in shaping the most advanced and arguably the most civilized society of the Middle Ages.

SNIP same thing as above

I have to take issue with this, a bit. Yes, Islam is not simple. However, it is backward, today. One just needs to look at "Muslim countries" to see its backwardness, as well as the rampant violence, misogyny and other nastiness that is generated by this religion.

Though many countries where Islam is the dominant religion are backward, that doesn't make Islam backward. Non-Islamic countries are equally fucked up: look at the remains of the Soviet Union, at China, at much of Latin America, if not at North Korea or Birma. Meanwhile Iran might be an oppressive theocracy and a possible nuclear threat, but it's also the closest thing to a democracy after Israel in the Middle East. Teheran actually has a top university. Turkey is a more secular state then Israel and most European countries. I would even go so far as to claim that they've overdone secularism a bit. They're a bit to close to the British "test acts" for my taste.

Muslim countries are also being forced into a position of opposition by the West. Muslims feel the need to stand firm for their oppressed muslim brothers, and they're at least partially justified in that attitude. This makes them willing to ignore practices by their fellow muslims that they'd normally object to. Many muslims object to female circumcision, violence against civilians and theocratic oppression, but they figure muslims need to stick together in these hostile times, or they feel some sense of misplaced loyalty.

It's useless to accuse Islam of the attrocities committed by its adherents, even if they claim to be acting according to their religion. It's people who do terrible things, not some religion.

I also take a bit of an issue with it being called "one of the richest cultures in the world." It is a religion, not a culture. Just as there is no "Christian culture" per se (because there are many different cultures that practice Christianity, so to Islam is practiced by many different cultures. There is Arab culture and subcultures, and there is Persian culture and Indian culture, and all of them practice a lot of Islam.

Follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, and you'll be left with cultures that each have only one person belonging to it.

Evil, of course, is a mental construct and whether it is "evil" or "inherently evil" is purely a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it is inherently evil (pernicious/bad for the world) because of its oppressive nature (rendering women and dhimmi second class citizens, etc.).

Persian culture is not "Islamic culture", or should not be, any more than American culture is "Christian culture." Much Persian culture is not dependent on Islam, although the followers of Islam hijack the culture by imposing the religion on those that do not wish it.

In any case, there are, as you say, flavors of Islam. However, that doesn't make it good, IMHO. It's like flavors of shit. They're still shit. It's still a false belief system - it's based on a fundamental falsehood: the existence of Allah. It is also based on the fundamental falsehood that Mohammed did what is written in the Qu'ran, and that the Qu'ran is some sort of "divine" document. No matter what the flavor, that's all false.

I never claimed that Islam was good. I just object to the idea that Islam is somehow inherently worse than other religions or ideologies.

Lastly, I take some issue with the concept of divorcing a religion from its followers. The religion is what its followers make of it. If a person does something bad and they did so because they thought they were following Islam, it's meaningless to say that it's not "true Islam." There is no objective judge of true Islam or true Christianity, and all interpretations have some logical flow from the core documents and principles. The problem is not whether horrid people are following the true Islam, or twisting it for their own purposes. The problem is that "enough" (not all, or even most) people in the world think Islam commands them to commit, or tacitly authorizes, horrific acts. Islam is evil because many of the people that claim to follow it do evil things. IMHO.

I'm not trying to divorce the religion from its adherents, much the oposite. Muslims do terrible things in the name of their religion, as do adherents of any religion, and as have adherents of atheistic ideologies. But every religion also has adherents who consider their religion to be the very core of their being, and who accomplish great and good things. These people will invariably tell you that their religion was an important factor in their achievements. You might object that it's not really their religion that made them do stuff, but what justification do you have for calling them liars?

We need to realize that muslims are in the first place human beings, and think and act essentially the same as other human beings. Atheists need to work on their empathy skills. Realize that atheism is a god damned luxury position.

[JimC]

XC wrote:

There is another small thing that has changed - in the last 100 years or so.

The most reactionary, insular and barbaric bastards in islam suddenly found that they were sitting right on top of the hugest oil reserves in the world. This made those bastards incredibly rich and expanded their influence far beyond the reaches of their arid, useless peninsula. Of course, they credit this bounty to their sky-daddy's all-knowing plan for them!

I agree. As a thought experiment, one could imagine islam without gulf oil, and the leverage & wealth it gave them. Many differences, I suspect...

The other vital factor is the running sore that is the whole Israel/Palestine situation...

JOZeldenrust wrote:

It's useless to accuse Islam of the attrocities committed by its adherents, even if they claim to be acting according to their religion. It's people who do terrible things, not some religion.

Sure it is people who do the actions, but one can analyse the nature of the religion whose belief systems support committing atrocities, and therefore be much more critical of such a religion than Jainism, for example, simply because it leads some of its adherents to produce so much more damage.

[Coito ergo sum]

Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.

It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.

On the shoulders of giants. It wasn't Islamic Culture that was at the height of the world, it was the culture they grew from.

I think you have an oversimplified idea of history.

Ah, yes, because he disagreed with you...

Societies aren't distinct, neatly defined structures.

Nobody stated or implied that the were.

They affect eachother, they have fringes where new or exotic traits are integrated into the society, they're divided by social, economic, ethnic or ideological boundaries.

I agree. Nobody here said they didn't...

Sure, muslims in Spain and north Africa had a lot more to work with then most other societies at that time, but that fact was at least in part a result of Islam.

Who cares? They were still an invading force.

Because Islam is so focussed on acurate preservation of the Quran, muslims developed an infrastructure for preserving thought in general, much like the Catholic church preserved thought in Christian Europe. Other then Christianity, Islam in Spain and North Africa not only had a scholastic tradition, but also an empirical tradition, which I admit wasn't a direct result of Islam, but the religion at least influenced its emergence. Because of this empirical work, muslims in Spain expanded their knowledge about the world, becoming the most advanced society of the time.

"the" most advanced society of 7th, 8th and 9th centuries? Well, regardless, I never said they didn't preserve information.

Islam certainly wasn't the only factor at play,

Never said it was. Islams is, in my view, a greater problem than it is a solution, on balance.

but it was a factor, and an important one at that, in shaping the most advanced and arguably the most civilized society of the Middle Ages.

Arguably. I'd go with the Byzantines, myself. But, over time the Muslims conquered region after region of the Byzantine Empire and stole all of the Byzantine's stuff and did a lot of forced conversions, etc.

SNIP same thing as above

I have to take issue with this, a bit. Yes, Islam is not simple. However, it is backward, today. One just needs to look at "Muslim countries" to see its backwardness, as well as the rampant violence, misogyny and other nastiness that is generated by this religion.

Though many countries where Islam is the dominant religion are backward,

The vast majority.

that doesn't make Islam backward.

Islam makes itself backward. Look at the backward nature of Sha'ria law, and the number of countries around the world under assault from the backward thinking that is Islam.

Non-Islamic countries are equally fucked up:

Not equally. Demonstrably not equally - let's list the Islamic countries and place them side by side with the non-Islamic countries....the list of fucked up countries is overwhelmingly Islamic.

look at the remains of the Soviet Union, at China, at much of Latin America, if not at North Korea or Birma.

North Korea is more fucked up than all Islamic countries, I'd say. Russia and most of the non-Islamic former soviet countries have problems, of course, but they don't have the Islamic menace to deal with by and large. However, where they do have to deal with it, Islamic pricks are blowing shit up, beating women, assaulting/battering/rioting over silly affronts, etc.

Meanwhile Iran might be an oppressive theocracy and a possible nuclear threat, but it's also the closest thing to a democracy after Israel in the Middle East.

Not even close though.

Teheran actually has a top university.

So what? Nobody said that everything in the Islamic world is worse than everything everywhere else. Islam, however, is a scourge, and a demonstrable scourge. One need only look at the horrors that that silly religion puts 1/2 of the population of the Muslim world - women.

Turkey is a more secular state then Israel and most European countries.

Turkey is the most secular Muslim country, but even there it is not nearly as secular than European countries.

I would even go so far as to claim that they've overdone secularism a bit.

Their theocracy is underdone, you think? They need more sectarianism?

They're a bit to close to the British "test acts" for my taste.

Muslim countries are also being forced into a position of opposition by the West.

Quite the reverse. Muslim countries place themselves in opposition to the West.

Muslims feel the need to stand firm for their oppressed muslim brothers,

That's a big problem with Islam. It causes them to apologize for the horrid acts of their "brothers," because they are required to side with even Muslim murderers against the nonbelievers.

and they're at least partially justified in that attitude.

Not at all justified in that attitude. Well, strike that - they are entitled to any attitude they want. But, when you run rampant in the street, yelling "death to America" and "kill the Jew hiding behind the rock" and calling for the death of apostates, putting prices on the heads of authors, driving female politicians underground, threatening cartoonists, slicing up filmakers int he streets like dogs, blowing up embassies, setting fire to embassies, bombing discos, bombing cafes, hijacking planes, ramming planes into buildings, bombing subways, setting fire to hotels and people, raping women in honor rapes, killing them in honor killings, blowing up buddhist statues, murdering women and children with machetes by the hundreds.....I find that unjustified.

This makes them willing to ignore practices by their fellow muslims that they'd normally object to. Many muslims object to female circumcision, violence against civilians and theocratic oppression, but they figure muslims need to stick together in these hostile times, or they feel some sense of misplaced loyalty.

If that's how their going to play it, then I'll stay with my team, they can stay with theirs. I want their filthy culture kept as far away from my children and family members as possible, because it is an insult to human dignity, defiles the name of liberty, and crushes the spirit of western Enlightenment under a theocratic boot heel. I will have none of it. I will resist it.

It's useless to accuse Islam of the attrocities committed by its adherents,

Useless? Maybe. False? Not at all. It is accurate. A religion is what its adherents make it.

even if they claim to be acting according to their religion. It's people who do terrible things, not some religion.

Yes, of course people do terrible things. But, a religion is a belief system, and just like fascism can cause people to do terrible things, so can - and does - Islam. It's a horrible belief system that causes a lot of people to do terrible things.

I also take a bit of an issue with it being called "one of the richest cultures in the world." It is a religion, not a culture. Just as there is no "Christian culture" per se (because there are many different cultures that practice Christianity, so to Islam is practiced by many different cultures. There is Arab culture and subcultures, and there is Persian culture and Indian culture, and all of them practice a lot of Islam.

Follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, and you'll be left with cultures that each have only one person belonging to it.

Followed to the point of absurdity, yes. However, there are distinct cultures in the world. Islam, however, is not a single culture. It is a religion, practiced in many distinct cultures.

Evil, of course, is a mental construct and whether it is "evil" or "inherently evil" is purely a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it is inherently evil (pernicious/bad for the world) because of its oppressive nature (rendering women and dhimmi second class citizens, etc.).

Persian culture is not "Islamic culture", or should not be, any more than American culture is "Christian culture." Much Persian culture is not dependent on Islam, although the followers of Islam hijack the culture by imposing the religion on those that do not wish it.

In any case, there are, as you say, flavors of Islam. However, that doesn't make it good, IMHO. It's like flavors of shit. They're still shit. It's still a false belief system - it's based on a fundamental falsehood: the existence of Allah. It is also based on the fundamental falsehood that Mohammed did what is written in the Qu'ran, and that the Qu'ran is some sort of "divine" document. No matter what the flavor, that's all false.

I never claimed that Islam was good. I just object to the idea that Islam is somehow inherently worse than other religions or ideologies.

Ah, that's a bit of a change of topic - "inherently worse than other religions..." is different than "inherently evil." I agree, it's not "inherently" worse than other religions because a religion is product of its adherents. Christianity used to be much worse than it is now. It's a lot less bad because we stripped it of much of its worldly power - certainly much, almost all, of it's "legal" power. We don't have "ecclesiastical courts" like we did in the olden days, and we have, in the west, separation of church and state. That goes a long way to suppressing the evil tendencies of Christianity. I have no doubt, however, that Christianity can become as bad as Islam - it's just not as bad as Islam right now. So, I agree Islam is not "inherently" worse - but, today it is in fact worse.. Things may change later.

Lastly, I take some issue with the concept of divorcing a religion from its followers. The religion is what its followers make of it. If a person does something bad and they did so because they thought they were following Islam, it's meaningless to say that it's not "true Islam." There is no objective judge of true Islam or true Christianity, and all interpretations have some logical flow from the core documents and principles. The problem is not whether horrid people are following the true Islam, or twisting it for their own purposes. The problem is that "enough" (not all, or even most) people in the world think Islam commands them to commit, or tacitly authorizes, horrific acts. Islam is evil because many of the people that claim to follow it do evil things. IMHO.

I'm not trying to divorce the religion from its adherents, much the oposite. Muslims do terrible things in the name of their religion, as do adherents of any religion,

I reject the equivalency. All the objective evidence shows that adherents to Islam do more and worse stuff in the name of their religion than any other in existence today. Yes, some death cults, like the Jim Jones folks in Guyana 30 years ago, and others do horrid things, but they tend to be rather isolated, and not in the sheer numbers as Islam. However, Buddhists and Christians - the other two main religions in the world - don't even come close - not in the same ballpark - not even in the same league - as Islam's adherents.

and as have adherents of atheistic ideologies.

Really? You think there is an equivalency between atheist atrocities and Muslim atrocities?

But every religion also has adherents who consider their religion to be the very core of their being, and who accomplish great and good things.

Yes, and I think that is a bad thing. However, while I may disagree with people who think that, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. What many Muslims do today, however, is take their feelings regarding their religion and use it to chop up women and children with machetes....etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

These people will invariably tell you that their religion was an important factor in their achievements. You might object that it's not really their religion that made them do stuff, but what justification do you have for calling them liars?

I wouldn't - I'd take them at their word, which is the same honor I give to Muslims. They SAY they are doing it for Allah - and killing people to protect their false prophet. Why would you not believe them?

We need to realize that muslims are in the first place human beings,

Absolutely. No argument there. They are genetically the same as any other humans. Science has shown that we are all - whatever color - the same race - there is no real difference. But for the grace of nature, and the luck of being born in a free country, to liberal, live-and-let-live, parents, and raised to be a freethinker, I might have been born in some hell pit like Mecca or some other sess pool. I am so pleased that I wasn't though.

and think and act essentially the same as other human beings. Atheists need to work on their empathy skills. Realize that atheism is a god damned luxury position.

Sure, they do act essentially the same, and like many humans can be sucked into death cults and silly religions all the time, Islam sucks in and brainwashes its followers - many of them. Not all, of course, will do crazy shit. The problem is that such a large number of them do, that we in the free world are having a hard time living our lives without having to endure their filth.