Question to the Religious: Is there a purgatory?

[Coito ergo sum]

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholics rely on 2 Maccabees 12:43-46, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 for the idea.

They start with the tradition of the Jews where Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

So, we've been having a discussion on another thread wherein I have asserted that religions and denominations generally support their beliefs with the same asserted "evidence": some form of scripture, authoritative statements and "testimonies" and of course "faith." I pointed out that there is no objective way to tell the difference between these beliefs, in terms of which is right and which is wrong.

One glaring example that I find is the concept of purgatory. Catholics have it. Protestants don't. Catholics find it makes perfect sense, and many prominent scholars who have studied the Bible have found it to make sense in their theology, and they base it on a logical analysis of the Bible passages. Protestants say it is not a correct interpretation of the Bible and doesn't really exist.

Does it?

Who are we to believe? How is an individual to know which belief is right? Does it matter?

Doesn't the same conundrum apply to the existence of a particular god too?

[Theophilus]

Ah, purgatory. In your sourjourns on that topic you may wish to look at the Pope's encyclical Spe salve (skip down to paras 45-49). I remember at the time the Anglican historian/theologian Alistair McGrath writing that it could have prevented the schism of the reformation as it brings Catholic and Protestant views much closer together. That may be taking things a tad too far, but the gap between Protestant and Catholic theology on this topic has certainly narrowed considerably since the days of Luther. Don't forget to allow for the Orthodox Church in your musings either, they have an interesting take on things.

If you're interested in the pre-Christian development of the early forms of this doctrine it's worth digging into the book of Enoch, which purportedly presents Sheol as a place of waiting for judgement, hence Judas Maccabeus in the book of Maccabees praying for the souls of the dead soldiers who died in sin; there appears to be a belief that their fates were not yet sealed and so prayer was offered up. The Catholic doctrine developed into this place being used to "work off" the temporal consequences of sin before heaven, though Spe Salve pulls back considerably from that punitive characterization and emphasizes a final sanctification (which may be instant) in the presence of Christ so that the person is sinless before entering heaven.

But I sense (and I could be wrong) you're not so much seeking to understand the doctrines around judgement and purgatory but are seeking to understand how different groups have different doctrines, so you'd probably benefit from someone else's opinion on that one as I think the two of us have probably beaten that topic around for a while. The only thing I would say is that the phrase "seeing as if through a mirror dimly" always comes to my mind when people or churches muse about the last things, though perhaps I could be more generous and say it is a case of fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding).

[Coito ergo sum]

Ah, purgatory. In your sourjourns on that topic you may wish to look at the Pope's encyclical Spe salve (skip down to paras 45-49). I remember at the time the Anglican historian/theologian Alistair McGrath writing that it could have prevented the schism of the reformation as it brings Catholic and Protestant views much closer together. That may be taking things a tad too far, but the gap between Protestant and Catholic theology on this topic has certainly narrowed considerably since the days of Luther. Don't forget to allow for the Orthodox Church in your musings either, they have an interesting take on things.

If you're interested in the pre-Christian development of the early forms of this doctrine it's worth digging into the book of Enoch, which purportedly presents Sheol as a place of waiting for judgement, hence Judas Maccabeus in the book of Maccabees praying for the souls of the dead soldiers who died in sin; there appears to be a belief that their fates were not yet sealed and so prayer was offered up. The Catholic doctrine developed into this place being used to "work off" the temporal consequences of sin before heaven, though Spe Salve pulls back considerably from that punitive characterization and emphasizes a final sanctification (which may be instant) in the presence of Christ so that the person is sinless before entering heaven.

But I sense (and I could be wrong) you're not so much seeking to understand the doctrines around judgement and purgatory but are seeking to understand how different groups have different doctrines, so you'd probably benefit from someone else's opinion on that one as I think the two of us have probably beaten that topic around for a while. The only thing I would say is that the phrase "seeing as if through a mirror dimly" always comes to my mind when people or churches muse about the last things, though perhaps I could be more generous and say it is a case of fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding).

So, after all that, is there a purgatory?

[devogue]

Ah, purgatory. In your sourjourns on that topic you may wish to look at the Pope's encyclical Spe salve (skip down to paras 45-49).

While I will write what he said off as baseless mythical claptrap, I must admit that it is quite beautiful mythical claptrap.

[Theophilus]

So, after all that, is there a purgatory?

In his book Tokens of Trust Rowan Williams talks about the moment that Christ is fully revealed to us in all his glory; he suggests that at that time we see ourselves as we really are, rather like Scrooge's epiphany in Dicken's A Christmas Carol. This realisation may cause us pain as we see our failings in full (while knowing that we are saved in and through Christ). This is similar to Pope Benedict's theology in Spe Salve.

If that fits into your definition of purgatory, personally I would say "yes". If you were presenting me with a vision based more on Dante's Divine Comedy, then personally I would say "no".

[Tigger]

So, after all that, is there a purgatory?

In his book Tokens of Trust Rowan Williams talks about the moment that Christ is fully revealed to us in all his glory; he suggests that at that time we see ourselves as we really are. Rather like Scrooge's epiphany in Dicken's A Christmas Carol. This realisation may cause us pain as we see our failings in full (while knowing that we are saved in and through Christ). This is similar to Pope Benedict's theology in Spe Salve.

If that fits into your definition of purgatory, personally I would say "yes". If you were presenting me with a vision based more on Dante's inferno, then personally I would say "no".

Are you okay? You answered a direct question! Sorry. Bad Tigger.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, after all that, is there a purgatory?

In his book Tokens of Trust Rowan Williams talks about the moment that Christ is fully revealed to us in all his glory; he suggests that at that time we see ourselves as we really are, rather like Scrooge's epiphany in Dicken's A Christmas Carol. This realisation may cause us pain as we see our failings in full (while knowing that we are saved in and through Christ). This is similar to Pope Benedict's theology in Spe Salve.

If that fits into your definition of purgatory, personally I would say "yes". If you were presenting me with a vision based more on Dante's Divine Comedy, then personally I would say "no".

I'm not presenting you with anything, and I don't have a definition of purgatory.

You're being evasive again.

If you believe in a purgatory - what's it like and why do you believe in it?

[Theophilus]

If you believe in a purgatory - what's it like and why do you believe in it?

Well Ces, I've given you my thoughts. I'm close to Rowan's view on this (as I am on many things), or maybe it's something like this (though perhaps without the comfy chair, I think the comfy chair is just a Catholic preoccupation ). I think if you want a more nailed-down view then you might want to head over to a Christian forum where you'll probably find people who are less speculative on this question than I am. I think scripture supports a transitional step/phase between this life and the next, but I don't think it supports much more detail than that (I would not want to say we have knowledge on time or place).

[Coito ergo sum]

If you believe in a purgatory - what's it like and why do you believe in it?

Well Ces, I've given you my thoughts. I'm close to Rowan's view on this (as I am on many things), or maybe it's something like this (though perhaps without the comfy chair, I think the comfy chair is just a Catholic preoccupation ). I think if you want a more nailed-down view then you might want to head over to a Christian forum where you'll probably find people who are less speculative on this question than I am. I think scripture supports a transitional step/phase between this life and the next, but I don't think it supports much more detail than that (I would not want to say we have knowledge on time or place).

Except the question in the OP was....

What's it [purgatory] like and why do you believe in it [purgatory]?

I don't see where you've even addressed that OP?

[Theophilus]

Oh well, I hope you enjoy your exploration of the doctrine; it's got a fascinating history of course, being key to the final trigger of the Reformation. Without purgatory (and indulgences) there may have been no Pilgrim fathers looking for a land where they could practice their Calvinist/Puritan faith in freedom. It's fascinating how world history turns on these things; who could ever predict it?

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh well, I hope you enjoy your exploration of the doctrine;

I was familiar with the doctrine prior to your post on this thread.

it's got a fascinating history of course,

Yes, the Church has a fascinating history too. However, that's beside the point of this thread.

being key to the final trigger of the Reformation. Without purgatory (and indulgences) there may have been no Pilgrim fathers looking for a land where they could practice their Calvinist/Puritan faith in freedom. It's fascinating how world history turns on these things; who could ever predict it?

And, it's fascinating how none of that has any bearing on the OP.

Do you even have an answer to "What is it [purgatory] like and why do you believe in it [purgatory]?"

My assumption now has to be that you don't. Isn't that fascinating in and of itself? You have no idea what it's like, and you can't answer why you believe in it, but for some reason you find its history and doctrine believable.

It's the whole "angels dancing on the point of a needle" thing. "Theologians" are starting with the proposition that there are angels with certain properties and drawing logical conclusions from there. Their logic is often quite good, but when you start with assumptions that are not established as true then you can very well proceed perfectly logically to completely false conclusions. Same goes for purgatory.