"God didn't make robots"

[Bolero]

Another gem I've heard in atheist/theist debates over the years.

Supposedly "free will" and "God didn't make robots" are some kind of answer to a number of atheist criticisms of the Christian religion. Apparently our "free will" to defy god is why there are so many interpretations of the Bible, why we don't all believe in the "one true god", why there's so much sin in the world, etc etc.

And yet, "free will" seems to be the least valuable human trait in Christian circles. This "right to choose" which god imbued us with apparently is only so that we can "choose correctly". In which case, it's a sham.

I don't know if I have a point here, but I've just been reading a few threads where I know the response from the fundamentalists would be "But God didn't make robots", so I'm taking the opportunity to vent.

Bolero.

[MissingNo.]

This is exactly what Hitchens (although I think he's quoting someone) means when he says that the from the Christian perspective, we're made sick and commanded to be healthy. According to this claim, we're created with free will yet punished if we don't come to the right conclusion in spite of a lack of evidence.

[Chinaski]

We have free will until we choose to abandon the idea of God. Then we're punished.

I still remember my middle school religion teacher say that true liberty was knowing how to depend on something, i.e. Jesus. The rest of the class gobbled it up- I was too inexperienced to recognize an unjustified empirical claim and know how to challenge it. It still disgusted me, though.

[noncredo]

We have free will until we choose to abandon the idea of God. Then we're punished.

Well that's only because god loves you so much. If he didn't love you he wouldn't even bother burning your ass forever for breaking the rules. But see, he does love you and the fact that he promises eternal hellfire if you step out of line only proves the depth and breadth of his love for you. We can't love like God loves, that is why we can only give someone a few years in jail...or adult time-out, when they break the rules, but God....he loves you so much more, he can give you the love filled burn-your-ass-forever treatment and I'm sure you will be thinking about how much love he has for you the whole time you are being BBQ'd.

And free will is just Gods way of letting you choose whether or not he is going to have to bring down the Holy-Whoop_Ass-Of-Fire on you or not. You can just as easily choose to stone the gays and witches and unruly children and promiscuous daughters and rebelious slaves and unproductive fig trees, and prostrate yourself before his Holy invisibleness groveling like the lowest of the low that you are...you know since you were born into sin...the sin that was eating something that God said don't eat., except it wasn't you that ate it it was someone else...maybe...OK it doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you try to actually explain it, that's why you have to have faith and not read too much into it...or read it at all really, just let the people who already buy it read it for you then they can tell you the important bits and leave out all the confusing bits.

[pcCoder]

According to most Christians I know, there was supposedly this rebellion in heaven and the devil was cast out. Well, what is their god going to do to stop it from happening again? The only option I see is to take away free will from those who go to heaven and basically make robots out of them. As long as free will exists, there is the possibility of it happening all over again, and given an infinite period of time, anything that is possible will eventually happen. Someone will eventually think the wrong thought or look the wrong way or whatever and break the 'perfection'. And if their god does anything to stop it from happening again or to make it impossible to happen again, then why not do from the start.

Anyway I think it is absurd to say that a god entity (or anyone really) wants people to have free will, but they must choose to do what it wants or suffer. What is the point in free will in such a situation? Where is the free will in a situation where a man says to his wife "I want you to make a choice. Stay home tomorrow. It is your choice, honey, and I love you. But, if you don't choose to I'll take my sawed-off shotgun and blast your brains, because I love you and just how I had to rest on the seventh minute of our wedding night, you must rest as well. But it is your choice. (loads shotgun and waits)"? At least in that situation, after her brains are sprayed all over the walls, it's over. For the religious way (at least Christianity/Islam), if the wife doesn't stay home, the husband will pour acid on her skin, but not let her die, and do it systematically so that her skin will heal so he can do it again and her suffer forever, all because she was given the free will to decide not stay home.

("It's your free choice. Do it or I'll kill you/burn your forever/etc.") Free will. But, it's all bullshit anyways and it doesn't make sense because it is bullshit.

[Arcanyn]

We are given free will under the proviso that we never use it.

[Xeno]

I like your summary, noncredo

The point made by several people, of the absurdity of being especially offered the opportunity to fail for no other reward, was probably the first critical issue in my departure from a mainstream religious upbringing.

[Tomi]

I have a lot of problems with the entire notion of free will from a determinism standpoint. Leaving that to one side, the whole idea of "free will" meaning that you are free to choose between doing what the tyrant wants and suffering for eternity does seem slightly absurd to me.

[rumbelow]

We have free will until we choose to abandon the idea of God. Then we're punished.

And when we have chosen to abandon the pissing idea of a God then it's the loving godbots who take it upon themselves to punish us in the name of their God

[Bolero]

I love all these responses so much.

I wish I had a whole posse of you folks handy every time I had these discussions.