Illinois police protect atheist sign

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Illinois police protect atheist sign

SPRINGFIELD, Ill., Dec. 24 (UPI) -- A conservative candidate for Illinois comptroller was ordered out of the state Capitol for trying to remove a sign placed by an atheist group, officials said.

William J. Kelly calls the sign, placed by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, "hate speech," saying it mocks the views of believers, CBS2Chicago.com reported. He announced Tuesday he was going to try to remove it and made his attempt Wednesday, only to be detained by police.

"I don't think the State of Illinois has any business denigrating or mocking any religion, and I think that's what the verbiage on the sign was doing," Kelly said.

The foundation has placed similar signs in several state capitol buildings. It was on display in the Illinois Capitol last year.

The group's message reads: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The Illinois holiday display includes a Christmas tree and nativity scene and a message from the American Civil Liberties Union that it supports freedom of religion. A Jewish menorah was removed at the end of the Hanukkah festival.

[AshtonBlack]

I still prefer "Probably" in there somewhere.

[Sisifo]

I still prefer "Probably" in there somewhere.

I agree. And also the "at the time of winter solstice" sentence, itches me.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I still prefer "Probably" in there somewhere.

I agree. And also the "at the time of winter solstice" sentence, itches me.

Why? That is correct. The Winter Solstice is an astronomical event occurring in late December at that latitude. That part of the message is accurate.

[JOZeldenrust]

I still prefer "Probably" in there somewhere.

I agree. And also the "at the time of winter solstice" sentence, itches me.

Why? That is correct. The Winter Solstice is an astronomical event occurring in late December at that latitude. That part of the message is accurate.

It's irrelevant (at least I think that's what Sisifo is saying). Reason should always prevail.

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

[maiforpeace]

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

As an active member of the FFRF, and being very current on their activism and what's behind it, characterizing what the FFRF is saying in their sign as atheist propaganda is rather tendentious. For many people, and the thousands of members that the FFRF represents, religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" and it's their truth. Just because you don't share that perspective doesn't make it 'tendentious atheist propaganda'.

Dec 23, 2009 1:37 pm US/Central
Furor Erupts Over Atheist Display At State Capitol
Comptroller Candidate William J. Kelly Tries To Take Down Sign, Is Escorted From Building
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (CBS) ―

A conservative activist and Illinois comptroller candidate was escorted from the Illinois State Capitol building Wednesday when he tried to remove a sign put up by an atheist group.

William J. Kelly, a Chicago Republican, announced Tuesday that he planned to take down the sign put up by the Freedom from Religion Foundation. On Wednesday, he tried to make good on his plan.

But Kelly said when he turned the sign around so it was face down, state Capitol police were quick to escort him away.

Illinois Secretary of State's office spokesman Henry Haupt said Kelly was escorted from the rotunda by state Capitol police, who briefly detained him, wrote an incident report, and directed him to leave the building.

"It doesn't matter how we feel about the message on a display," Haupt said. "Our obligation is to protect the property within the state Capitol building, and we would do the same for any other display."

But Kelly called the sign "hate speech," and said he does not believe it is appropriate for a sign that "mocks" religion to be placed next to a Christmas tree and also near a nativity scene.

"I don't think the State of Illinois has any business denigrating or mocking any religion," Kelly said, "and I think that's what the verbiage on the sign was doing."

The sign reads: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The sign was also on display at the Capitol at this time last year. The group says it filed for a permit to post the display in response to the state's decision to put up the nativity.

But Kelly said he believes the problem is not only the verbiage of the sign, but also its proximity to the Christmas tree.

"The fact that sign was immediately in front of the tree, I found that to be disturbing because any family and any child would run up to that tree with a smile on their face, and they would immediately see that sign," Kelly said.

Haupt said Kelly had been advised not to return to the state Capitol for the rest of the day on Wednesday.

The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom from Religion Foundation has placed the sign in several state Capitol buildings across the country.

As to Kelly's claims that the sign mocks religion, foundation co-President Dan Barker said: "He's kind of right, because the last couple of sentences do criticize religion, and of course, the beginning is a celebration of the winter solstice. But that kind of speech is protected as well – speech that is critical and speech that is supportive."

The foundation does not approve of the nativity scene, Barker said.

"We atheists believe that the nativity scene is mocking humanity," by suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell, Barker said. "But notice that we are not defacing or stealing nativity scenes because we disagree with their speech."

Signs in other states have been targets of vandals, Barker said.

In Wisconsin, someone threw acid on it one year, and some people turned it around and hid it in the back rooms of the state Capitol, and in Washington state, someone walked it out of the Capitol and threw it away, Barker said. The Washington state sign was later found in a ditch near a country radio station and returned to the capitol in Olympia.

This is the second year the Freedom from Religion sign has been at the Illinois State Capitol.

Haupt said in addition to the sign, the Nativity Scene and the Christmas tree, there is also a Soldiers' Angels wreath, and a tabletop display from the American Civil Liberties Union that says the group "defends freedom of religion." A Hanukkah menorah had also been on display until the Jewish Festival of Lights ended on Saturday.

For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday popularized in "Seinfeld."

[JOZeldenrust]

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

As an active member of the FFRF, and being very current on their activism and what's behind it, characterizing what the FFRF is saying in their sign as atheist propaganda is rather tendentious. For many people, and the thousands of members that the FFRF represents, religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" and it's their truth. Just because you don't share that perspective doesn't make it 'tendentious atheist propaganda'.

Bollocks. There's no such thing as "their truth". Either it's true or it isn't. Religion isn't just "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", and such a mischaracterization is tendentious. It's a gross oversimplification. These kinds of messages from the FFRF are fine. They're free to say whatever nonsense they please. It's because of these stupid actions that I don't want to have anything to do with organisations like the FFRF. Put enough intelligent people together, and they start acting like complete idiots.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

As an active member of the FFRF, and being very current on their activism and what's behind it, characterizing what the FFRF is saying in their sign as atheist propaganda is rather tendentious. For many people, and the thousands of members that the FFRF represents, religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" and it's their truth. Just because you don't share that perspective doesn't make it 'tendentious atheist propaganda'.

Bollocks. There's no such thing as "their truth". Either it's true or it isn't. Religion isn't just "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", and such a mischaracterization is tendentious. It's a gross oversimplification. These kinds of messages from the FFRF are fine. They're free to say whatever nonsense they please. It's because of these stupid actions that I don't want to have anything to do with organisations like the FFRF. Put enough intelligent people together, and they start acting like complete idiots.

While I find myself agreeing with you in part, JOZ, I do find that your blanket dismissal of the FFRF stance is every bit as dogmatic and sweeping a generalisation as their statements. Don't you think it would be more constructive and positive to point out the flaws in their arguments and suggest how their statements could be improved, rather than dismiss them as 'stupid' and 'bollocks'? Otherwise, you are being equally guilty of gross oversimplification, are you not?

[JOZeldenrust]

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

As an active member of the FFRF, and being very current on their activism and what's behind it, characterizing what the FFRF is saying in their sign as atheist propaganda is rather tendentious. For many people, and the thousands of members that the FFRF represents, religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" and it's their truth. Just because you don't share that perspective doesn't make it 'tendentious atheist propaganda'.

Bollocks. There's no such thing as "their truth". Either it's true or it isn't. Religion isn't just "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", and such a mischaracterization is tendentious. It's a gross oversimplification. These kinds of messages from the FFRF are fine. They're free to say whatever nonsense they please. It's because of these stupid actions that I don't want to have anything to do with organisations like the FFRF. Put enough intelligent people together, and they start acting like complete idiots.

While I find myself agreeing with you in part, JOZ, I do find that your blanket dismissal of the FFRF stance is every bit as dogmatic and sweeping a generalisation as their statements. Don't you think it would be more constructive and positive to point out the flaws in their arguments and suggest how their statements could be improved, rather than dismiss them as 'stupid' and 'bollocks'? Otherwise, you are being equally guilty of gross oversimplification, are you not?

No, I'm not. I'm not claiming that the FFRF do only stupid things. Many of these campaigns are stupid (or should I say "I consider them stupid"?), and so are efforts to get religious texts off of money, but keeping a close eye on what is taught in biology classes, or pointing out instances of discrimination against atheists are stupid nor trivial. The FFRF does a lot of good things, but these stupid campaigns just foster antipathy.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't like characterizing religion as "just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Religions is all that, but it isn't just that. It's also ritual, and community, comfort and purpose, and for quite a few people a force that makes them look to others more kindly. I'm getting really fed up with all this tendentious atheist propaganda.

As an active member of the FFRF, and being very current on their activism and what's behind it, characterizing what the FFRF is saying in their sign as atheist propaganda is rather tendentious. For many people, and the thousands of members that the FFRF represents, religion is "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" and it's their truth. Just because you don't share that perspective doesn't make it 'tendentious atheist propaganda'.

Bollocks. There's no such thing as "their truth". Either it's true or it isn't. Religion isn't just "myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", and such a mischaracterization is tendentious. It's a gross oversimplification. These kinds of messages from the FFRF are fine. They're free to say whatever nonsense they please. It's because of these stupid actions that I don't want to have anything to do with organisations like the FFRF. Put enough intelligent people together, and they start acting like complete idiots.

While I find myself agreeing with you in part, JOZ, I do find that your blanket dismissal of the FFRF stance is every bit as dogmatic and sweeping a generalisation as their statements. Don't you think it would be more constructive and positive to point out the flaws in their arguments and suggest how their statements could be improved, rather than dismiss them as 'stupid' and 'bollocks'? Otherwise, you are being equally guilty of gross oversimplification, are you not?

No, I'm not. I'm not claiming that the FFRF do only stupid things. Many of these campaigns are stupid (or should I say "I consider them stupid"?), and so are efforts to get religious texts off of money, but keeping a close eye on what is taught in biology classes, or pointing out instances of discrimination against atheists are stupid nor trivial. The FFRF does a lot of good things, but these stupid campaigns just foster antipathy.

That wasn't made clear in your previous post, hence my accusation of oversimplification. Had you said that in the first place, your position would have been far more understandable. Do you see my point here?

[JOZeldenrust]

That wasn't made clear in your previous post, hence my accusation of oversimplification. Had you said that in the first place, your position would have been far more understandable. Do you see my point here?

Yes I do. Glad that's cleared up.

[leo-rcc]

No, I'm not. I'm not claiming that the FFRF do only stupid things. Many of these campaigns are stupid (or should I say "I consider them stupid"?), and so are efforts to get religious texts off of money, but keeping a close eye on what is taught in biology classes, or pointing out instances of discrimination against atheists are stupid nor trivial. The FFRF does a lot of good things, but these stupid campaigns just foster antipathy.

That wasn't made clear in your previous post, hence my accusation of oversimplification. Had you said that in the first place, your position would have been far more understandable. Do you see my point here?

Perhaps it is just you, as I understood JOZ' position from the first post.

[Animavore]

I hate that poster campaign too. I didn't mind the ones that said Don't believe in God? You're not alone. because it wasn't attacking. Some people took offence to it which just made theists look silly but this one is provocative. Putting it in front of the Christmas tree is mean spirited. It makes atheists look like the assholes were as the first example makes the theist look like the asshole. Which is what I would rather strive for. Let them shoot themselves in the foot with their knee-jerk "moral outrage".

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I hate that poster campaign too. I didn't mind the ones that said Don't believe in God? You're not alone. because it wasn't attacking. Some people took offence to it which just made theists look silly but this one is provocative. Putting it in front of the Christmas tree is mean spirited. It makes atheists look like the assholes were as the first example makes the theist look like the asshole. Which is what I would rather strive for. Let them shoot themselves in the foot with their knee-jerk "moral outrage".

+1

[maiforpeace]

I get the feeling many of you, not being American know exactly what is really going on with this campaign.

What the FFRF is fighting is religious symbols ON PUBLIC PROPERTY. This is a big problem in the US. I, along with many other Americans find religious symbols, like creches and menorahs on government property offensive. Instead of respecting separation of church and state and limiting them to private property, religious people here in the US insist on their display on public property. In my opinion, and in the opinion of the FFRF, Americans United for Church and State, The Secular Coalition of America, and the many organizations fighting for separation of church and state, the display of religious symbols violates the establishment clause. We find this highly offensive.

Posting that sign, with it's provocative statement, at the Capitol is meant to be offensive for a very specific reason.

As long as the religious get to speak their mind about stuff that I find offensive on public property that we all share, then every one should have the right to do it. I would prefer to see it all removed from public and government property, but until then I applaud the FFRF for what it's doing to fight for the separation of church and state, and for my civil rights as an atheist in the U.S.

Rosa Parks offended a lot of people when she sat at the front of the bus. Atheists in the U.S. should be prepared to suffer the same discrimination, and sadly, it seems even from other atheists.