Palestine v Israel.

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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon May 31, 2021 11:49 pm

Why don't you post a pro-Palestinian argument? It would show that you aren't perpetually biased to the right-wing.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Seabass » Mon May 31, 2021 11:54 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 11:47 pm
I meant a counter point to Shapiro. Of course, you haven't disagreed with anything he said, only who he is.

Impersonating ignorance, I guess.
Did he present a point or a history? Earlier you said he presented a history, and now you're talking about counter points.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:04 am

Cunt wrote:I meant a counter point to Shapiro. Of course, you haven't disagreed with anything he said, only who he is.

Impersonating ignorance, I guess.
What is Shapie's point exactly?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Hermit » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:50 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:04 am
Cunt wrote:I meant a counter point to Shapiro. Of course, you haven't disagreed with anything he said, only who he is.

Impersonating ignorance, I guess.
What is Shapie's point exactly?
Israel is the land of the Jews, and the Jews only, because the Palestinians are Muslims and the Jews got there 1600 years before the Muslim religion even existed.

Well, yes, it is definitely true that the Jews' first appearance in the area preceded that of the Palestinians by many centuries, but in order to conclude that the Jews therefore rightfully own the land it is necessary to carefully avoid mentioning some historical facts and proffer a distorted version of others. Shapiro does both before the end of the first minute.
(0:30) To begin the story you have to understand that the Jewish story with regard to Israel begins approximately 1300 BCE (0:39) and it starts with Joshua entering the land. It is all in the Bible
Joshua did not just enter the land. That is a distortion of historical fact if we take the Bible as a source of historical fact. He conquered the land already settled by other people. Then he leaves particular historical facts, which are also all in the Bible, out of his historical account, such as the destruction by Joshua of Jericho, the genocide committed against the Canaanites (ordered by God, no less), the wars against and driving off the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Girgashites and Jebusites who lived there before Joshua's arrival (these historical facts are also all in the Bible).

It is news to me that stealing land by means of wars and massacres confers legitimate ownership on the victors, and I suspect that Shapiro knows that it does not. That is why he sweeps all those historical facts, as told in the Bible, under the carpet, all the while listing others from the same book.

I don't know how Shapiro attempts to justify legitimate continuing ownership of the land by the Jews despite their repeated, sometimes lengthy, expulsions from it, and I don't care because he starts off on the wrong premiss, namely that the conquest by war and genocide does convey legitimate ownership in the first place. His mentions about the first Jewish kingdom, the establishment of Jerusalem as the kingdom's capital and so on, are attempts to give Israel an air of legitimacy reaching back to ancient times. In light of how the Jews got there in the first place they do no such thing.

Shapiro did not present a history. He presented a polemic, the point of which was to justify the existence of the Jewish nation. His polemic involved the use of a set of carefully selected historical facts, the deliberate omission of a set of others and interpretations of historical facts to suit his point.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Seabass » Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:49 am

Wait a minute. He used the bible as a historical reference? :funny:

That's even worse than I assumed it would be.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:12 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:50 am
Joshua did not just enter the land. That is a distortion of historical fact if we take the Bible as a source of historical fact. He conquered the land already settled by other people. Then he leaves particular historical facts, which are also all in the Bible, out of his historical account, such as the destruction by Joshua of Jericho, the genocide committed against the Canaanites (ordered by God, no less), the wars against and driving off the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Girgashites and Jebusites who lived there before Joshua's arrival (these historical facts are also all in the Bible).
Seabass wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:49 am
Wait a minute. He used the bible as a historical reference? :funny:

That's even worse than I assumed it would be.
Well, Hermit, as shown above, also uses the bible as a historical reference to the conquest of the lands in dispute by Jews, involving the violent dispossession of those lands from other, non-Jewish tribes, all in the name of Jehovah.

I would be interested to know of independent historical/archeological evidence of such a process. Using the bible as a source is a two-edged sword...

(BTW, I am not disputing the basic thrust of Hermit's arguments, just wanting some neutral confirmation of the facts...)
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:40 am

What does Stephen Crowder have to say about it?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Seabass » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:41 am

JimC wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:12 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:50 am
Joshua did not just enter the land. That is a distortion of historical fact if we take the Bible as a source of historical fact. He conquered the land already settled by other people. Then he leaves particular historical facts, which are also all in the Bible, out of his historical account, such as the destruction by Joshua of Jericho, the genocide committed against the Canaanites (ordered by God, no less), the wars against and driving off the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Girgashites and Jebusites who lived there before Joshua's arrival (these historical facts are also all in the Bible).
Seabass wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:49 am
Wait a minute. He used the bible as a historical reference? :funny:

That's even worse than I assumed it would be.
Well, Hermit, as shown above, also uses the bible as a historical reference to the conquest of the lands in dispute by Jews, involving the violent dispossession of those lands from other, non-Jewish tribes, all in the name of Jehovah.

I would be interested to know of independent historical/archeological evidence of such a process. Using the bible as a source is a two-edged sword...

(BTW, I am not disputing the basic thrust of Hermit's arguments, just wanting some neutral confirmation of the facts...)
Sure, but Hermit's pointing out that even we do accept for the sake of argument the babble as a historical source, Shapiro is still full of shit.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:42 am

I'm still waiting for Cunt to "Steelman" the Palestinian side.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Hermit » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:46 am

JimC wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:12 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:50 am
Joshua did not just enter the land. That is a distortion of historical fact if we take the Bible as a source of historical fact. He conquered the land already settled by other people. Then he leaves particular historical facts, which are also all in the Bible, out of his historical account, such as the destruction by Joshua of Jericho, the genocide committed against the Canaanites (ordered by God, no less), the wars against and driving off the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Girgashites and Jebusites who lived there before Joshua's arrival (these historical facts are also all in the Bible).
Seabass wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:49 am
Wait a minute. He used the bible as a historical reference? :funny:

That's even worse than I assumed it would be.
Well, Hermit, as shown above, also uses the bible as a historical reference to the conquest of the lands in dispute by Jews, involving the violent dispossession of those lands from other, non-Jewish tribes, all in the name of Jehovah.

I would be interested to know of independent historical/archeological evidence of such a process. Using the bible as a source is a two-edged sword...

(BTW, I am not disputing the basic thrust of Hermit's arguments, just wanting some neutral confirmation of the facts...)
Sorry for not making this explicit: I was not so much using the Bible as a source of evidence as I was intent on showing how Shapiro cherry-picks from it. My repeated mention of the source for facts he did not use being the same was meant to make that clear. Obviously it was not clear enough.

As for independent historical/archeological evidence, it is difficult - in some cases impossible - to come by. For instance, apart from what the Bible claims we don't actually have any archaeological or documentary evidence Moses even existed or that the Jews spent any time in Egypt as slaves at all.

From the Wikipedia on Exodus:
Modern archaeologists believe that the Israelites were indigenous to Canaan and were never in ancient Egypt
From the Wikipedia on Moses and Exodus:
No references to Moses appear in any Egyptian sources prior to the fourth century BCE, long after he is believed to have lived. No contemporary Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus–Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:12 am

Hermit wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:04 am
Cunt wrote:I meant a counter point to Shapiro. Of course, you haven't disagreed with anything he said, only who he is.

Impersonating ignorance, I guess.
What is Shapie's point exactly?
Israel is the land of the Jews, and the Jews only, because the Palestinians are Muslims and the Jews got there 1600 years before the Muslim religion even existed.

Well, yes, it is definitely true that the Jews' first appearance in the area preceded that of the Palestinians by many centuries, but in order to conclude that the Jews therefore rightfully own the land it is necessary to carefully avoid mentioning some historical facts and proffer a distorted version of others. Shapiro does both before the end of the first minute.
(0:30) To begin the story you have to understand that the Jewish story with regard to Israel begins approximately 1300 BCE (0:39) and it starts with Joshua entering the land. It is all in the Bible
Joshua did not just enter the land. That is a distortion of historical fact if we take the Bible as a source of historical fact. He conquered the land already settled by other people. Then he leaves particular historical facts, which are also all in the Bible, out of his historical account, such as the destruction by Joshua of Jericho, the genocide committed against the Canaanites (ordered by God, no less), the wars against and driving off the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Girgashites and Jebusites who lived there before Joshua's arrival (these historical facts are also all in the Bible).

It is news to me that stealing land by means of wars and massacres confers legitimate ownership on the victors, and I suspect that Shapiro knows that it does not. That is why he sweeps all those historical facts, as told in the Bible, under the carpet, all the while listing others from the same book.

I don't know how Shapiro attempts to justify legitimate continuing ownership of the land by the Jews despite their repeated, sometimes lengthy, expulsions from it, and I don't care because he starts off on the wrong premiss, namely that the conquest by war and genocide does convey legitimate ownership in the first place. His mentions about the first Jewish kingdom, the establishment of Jerusalem as the kingdom's capital and so on, are attempts to give Israel an air of legitimacy reaching back to ancient times. In light of how the Jews got there in the first place they do no such thing.

Shapiro did not present a history. He presented a polemic, the point of which was to justify the existence of the Jewish nation. His polemic involved the use of a set of carefully selected historical facts, the deliberate omission of a set of others and interpretations of historical facts to suit his point.
So, would you say that cousin Ben briefly outlined his support for the Israeli's current colonisation of the region and justified it by ancient and mythical accounts of past colonisation by early Jewish tribes?

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Svartalf » Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:24 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:40 am
What does Stephen Crowder have to say about it?
and more precisely, does he have anything else than blithering idiocies to present our ears with?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Svartalf » Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:25 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:42 am
I'm still waiting for Cunt to "Steelman" the Palestinian side.
how do you steelman people who fight other people over bronze age legendry?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:06 am

Ok, 'Bronzeman' then.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Hermit » Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:53 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:12 am
So, would you say that cousin Ben briefly outlined his support for the Israeli's current colonisation of the region and justified it by ancient and mythical accounts of past colonisation by early Jewish tribes?
Yes. That's a very succinct and accurate summary of what I wrote in my previous posts.
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