AmeriKKKa

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:09 am

But you wouldn't have got to experience Ratz.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:20 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:40 am
What the hell is an "authentic sense of whiteness"?
It's complicated. :)

I'm inclined to think of 'Whiteness' (capital W) as signifying a particular perception of a state of affairs - that is, as representing a particular perspective on the World; one derived predominantly from white experience that is also held up as representing universal norms or standards. When considered in these terms Whiteness is literally everywhere we look in society and goes beyond the issues of racial identity and/or inequality.

Here we might understand Whiteness as doing similar work to a term like 'Patriarchy' (capital P) - which signifies a particular perspective on the World derived from a predominantly male experience that is also held up as representing universal norms or standards, and which is similarly everywhere we look in society and goes beyond the issues of gender identity and inequality.

In simple terms we might say that Patriarchy doesn't only represent the dominance of men in social, political, economic, institutional, or personal relationships between men and women but, as a signifier of a particular perception of a state of affairs, it is something that impacts the common description and experience of, and therefore is of concern for, both men and women. Similarly Whiteness doesn't only represent the dominance of whites in relationships between individuals and groups, but, as a signifier of a particular perspective on the World, is something which impacts the common descriptions and experiences of white an non-white communities alike.

Just as Patriarchy tends to sexualise (or if you prefer, genderise) relationships between men and women Whiteness tends to racialise relationships between different communities. Just as Patriarchy tends to discount or disqualify the ideas, experiences and needs of women in society Whiteness tends to discount or disqualify the ideas, experiences and needs of non-white communities in a similar fashion - i.e. because they appear to lie outside of the norm. And just as Patriarchy tends to place a pressure on men to conform to those agreed norm-representing standards of maleness (which individually or collectively they might not be suited to or even want to adhere to) Whiteness tends to place pressures on white communities and individuals to conform to certain standards or norms which they might not be suited to or agree with.

So just as Patriarchy is a disaster for women as well as setting many men up to fail at being 'real men' Whiteness is a disaster for non-whites as well as setting up many whites to fail at being real or "authentic" white people or communities.

When we talk about authenticity here we're not talking about something conforming to facts and therefore being something worthy of trust, reliance, or belief - as the dictionary might put it - but about people being what they profess to be or are reputed to be, in origin or 'authorship'; about people being who they are and who they desire to be; about people having the freedom and autonomy to be the architects of their own lives or the authors of their own story etc. We can call this personal authenticity if you like.

Of course, the problem is who gets to define what it might be for a person to be authentically themselves? Ideally we would probably agree that this is solely a matter for the individual to decide, but in reality we are all subject to a complex of competing social, political, economic, institutional and personal factors all vying for our attention and competing for our consideration. Add to that that we all embody a number of identities -- for example, within scope of this discussion, I'm white, but I'm also a man, a son, a brother, a father, an uncle, a friend, an equestrian, an activist, a fighter, a music lover, a hobbyist this and a professional that etc -- and things get more complicated still.

What does it mean for me to be any of those things authentically, as it were? Which of those identities, or combination of identities, applies to who and what I am? I might say that I'm a white man, a white middle-aged man, a white middle-aged middle-class man, and appear to be easily understood, but why would we talk about me being a white uncle or a white judoka, where, for some reason, my whitehood seems less signficant, or perhaps even superfluous? Personal authenticity therefore is not only subjective but also variable and contingent on circumstances and context, but when it comes to my identity as a white man we can at least say that my whitehood is relevant within the circumstances and context of race and race relationships and that my manhood is relevant within the circumstances and context of gender and gender relationships.

I don't know exactly what Sean meant by an "authentic sense of whiteness" but it surely means something within the context of race and race relations, and perhaps stands for the idea that to be an authentic white person is to somehow recognise or acknowledge this element of one's identity within the broader context of a society where one's race, or perceived or attributed race identity, carries a certain amount of weight, force or significance.

That said, one person's "authentic sense of whiteness" might be totally racially exclusive where another's might be entirely racially inclusive, and thus their conception of things--their perception of a state of affairs; their perspective on the World---will be completely different even as they both appear authentic, at least in their own eyes. And this bring us back to questions about who or what has, or claims the authority to decide the norms and standards which represent what is and what it means to be white or non-white, just as with who decides the norms and standards which represent what it is and what it means to be a man or a woman or a none-of-the-above. Are these things which the individual decides independently or in isolation from society, or something the individual decides within the context of and in relation to society, or something that society decides on their behalf and/or imposes by tradition, convention or even by law? Or is it a mix of all these things playing out together?

I told you it was complicated. :)
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:33 am

tl;dr
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Hermit » Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:29 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:28 am
Hermit wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:00 am
An authentic sense of whiteness, whatever that is, does not negate the existence of white privilege.
Fuck white privilege, immigrants from afriky who never worked a day in this country get fucktons of public assistance money and live better than I do.
Non-whites stealing your bikkies?

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Svartalf » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:38 pm

I'll be there when the People rise and collectivise the assets of the stock exchange thieves...
But it's a fact that their lackeys in government mishandle public funds on an epic scale, and at the expense of their ess favored compatriots.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:02 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:20 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:40 am
What the hell is an "authentic sense of whiteness"?
It's complicated. :)

I'm inclined to think of 'Whiteness' (capital W) as signifying a particular perception of a state of affairs - that is, as representing a particular perspective on the World; one derived predominantly from white experience that is also held up as representing universal norms or standards. When considered in these terms Whiteness is literally everywhere we look in society and goes beyond the issues of racial identity and/or inequality.

Here we might understand Whiteness as doing similar work to a term like 'Patriarchy' (capital P) - which signifies a particular perspective on the World derived from a predominantly male experience that is also held up as representing universal norms or standards, and which is similarly everywhere we look in society and goes beyond the issues of gender identity and inequality.

In simple terms we might say that Patriarchy doesn't only represent the dominance of men in social, political, economic, institutional, or personal relationships between men and women but, as a signifier of a particular perception of a state of affairs, it is something that impacts the common description and experience of, and therefore is of concern for, both men and women. Similarly Whiteness doesn't only represent the dominance of whites in relationships between individuals and groups, but, as a signifier of a particular perspective on the World, is something which impacts the common descriptions and experiences of white an non-white communities alike.

Just as Patriarchy tends to sexualise (or if you prefer, genderise) relationships between men and women Whiteness tends to racialise relationships between different communities. Just as Patriarchy tends to discount or disqualify the ideas, experiences and needs of women in society Whiteness tends to discount or disqualify the ideas, experiences and needs of non-white communities in a similar fashion - i.e. because they appear to lie outside of the norm. And just as Patriarchy tends to place a pressure on men to conform to those agreed norm-representing standards of maleness (which individually or collectively they might not be suited to or even want to adhere to) Whiteness tends to place pressures on white communities and individuals to conform to certain standards or norms which they might not be suited to or agree with.

So just as Patriarchy is a disaster for women as well as setting many men up to fail at being 'real men' Whiteness is a disaster for non-whites as well as setting up many whites to fail at being real or "authentic" white people or communities.

When we talk about authenticity here we're not talking about something conforming to facts and therefore being something worthy of trust, reliance, or belief - as the dictionary might put it - but about people being what they profess to be or are reputed to be, in origin or 'authorship'; about people being who they are and who they desire to be; about people having the freedom and autonomy to be the architects of their own lives or the authors of their own story etc. We can call this personal authenticity if you like.

Of course, the problem is who gets to define what it might be for a person to be authentically themselves? Ideally we would probably agree that this is solely a matter for the individual to decide, but in reality we are all subject to a complex of competing social, political, economic, institutional and personal factors all vying for our attention and competing for our consideration. Add to that that we all embody a number of identities -- for example, within scope of this discussion, I'm white, but I'm also a man, a son, a brother, a father, an uncle, a friend, an equestrian, an activist, a fighter, a music lover, a hobbyist this and a professional that etc -- and things get more complicated still.

What does it mean for me to be any of those things authentically, as it were? Which of those identities, or combination of identities, applies to who and what I am? I might say that I'm a white man, a white middle-aged man, a white middle-aged middle-class man, and appear to be easily understood, but why would we talk about me being a white uncle or a white judoka, where, for some reason, my whitehood seems less signficant, or perhaps even superfluous? Personal authenticity therefore is not only subjective but also variable and contingent on circumstances and context, but when it comes to my identity as a white man we can at least say that my whitehood is relevant within the circumstances and context of race and race relationships and that my manhood is relevant within the circumstances and context of gender and gender relationships.

I don't know exactly what Sean meant by an "authentic sense of whiteness" but it surely means something within the context of race and race relations, and perhaps stands for the idea that to be an authentic white person is to somehow recognise or acknowledge this element of one's identity within the broader context of a society where one's race, or perceived or attributed race identity, carries a certain amount of weight, force or significance.

That said, one person's "authentic sense of whiteness" might be totally racially exclusive where another's might be entirely racially inclusive, and thus their conception of things--their perception of a state of affairs; their perspective on the World---will be completely different even as they both appear authentic, at least in their own eyes. And this bring us back to questions about who or what has, or claims the authority to decide the norms and standards which represent what is and what it means to be white or non-white, just as with who decides the norms and standards which represent what it is and what it means to be a man or a woman or a none-of-the-above. Are these things which the individual decides independently or in isolation from society, or something the individual decides within the context of and in relation to society, or something that society decides on their behalf and/or imposes by tradition, convention or even by law? Or is it a mix of all these things playing out together?

I told you it was complicated. :)
That was worth reading Brian. :cheers: I think you captured the essence of many of the points raised in the articles posted, and posed a few challenging questions of your own.

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by laklak » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:14 am

I'm completely, authentically, 100% 'Murikan-born White. If y'all have any questions I'll be happy to answer them.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Svartalf » Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:19 am

But are you a Southern Belle?
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Seabass » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:15 am

If I had an interest in generating an authentic sense of white-ish/yellow-ish-ness, how would I go about doing that? I don't even know where to start. :think:
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Hermit » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:48 am

Seabass wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:15 am
If I had an interest in generating an authentic sense of white-ish/yellow-ish-ness, how would I go about doing that? I don't even know where to start. :think:
Brian Peacock has thoughtfully, diplomatically and convincingly destroyed the possibility of establishing the concept of authentic sense of whiteness - and with it an authentic sense of any colour - in this post. The closest you can hope for to generate an authentic sense of white-ish/yellow-ish-ness is to piss in the snow.
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:41 am

:hehe:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:44 pm

You know, understanding what being white has actually meant for you vs what anyone else tells you it has meant/means.

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:57 pm

I don't know where to start for you either Seabass. I thought you might find the fact that young biracial women often prefer to identify as the more meaningful non-white interesting and relevant. I know you've identified as both in different context, so clearly there is some "meaning" behind your whiteness and non-whiteness for you.

--//--

Encouraging people to explore this stuff to develop something authentic sounded reasonable to me.
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by laklak » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:57 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:19 am
But are you a Southern Belle?
Ah am a Southern Gentleman, married to a Southern Belle. (She's from about as far South as you can get, after all).
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: AmeriKKKa

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:28 pm

There's too much pressure in being a Southern Gentleman for me. I take some aspects of the proper decorum, but can do without all the dueling. :tea:

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