The state of the UK

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:57 pm

They are only moving top management. Ten years ago it would be considered a disaster but these days multinationals as Unilever and Shell (it will drop the "Royal Dutch" bit) are dinosaurs on the world stage and the UK is part of that ancient world. Anyway which divisions will move has not been stated. The Technical University of Delft almost functions as a division of Shell. The riddle is why does Shell want to go on a sinking ship. Simple answer of course in chumocracy. What is Shell getting under the table we will never know but it will be more or less as Unilever. It has to do with the removal of tax relief on dividends from three years ago.

The Volks article on the subject: Na Unilever vertrekt ook Shell. Hoe erg is dat voor Nederland?
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:31 pm

Boris fails to keep his promises once again:

HS2 rail leg to Leeds scrapped, Grant Shapps confirms
Anger in northern England and Midlands, with high-speed Leeds-Manchester line also not going ahead

The eastern leg of HS2 to Leeds has been scrapped and a full high-speed east-west line linking Manchester to Leeds will not be built, the government has confirmed, as it insisted faster train journeys would be delivered earlier and cheaper under a £96bn rail plan.

The high-speed rail network will go ahead to Manchester but will be curtailed at an existing east Midlands station rather than run from Birmingham to Leeds, while the TransPennine route will be improved mainly through upgrades rather than a full brand new line.

The transport secretary, Grant Shapps, told the Commons that the changes and investment would bring better rail connections for passengers years earlier in a network that would work for every community.

He said that the Oakervee review of HS2 had shown a rethink was needed, and a subsequent National Infrastructure Commission report meant “a flexible approach” and “strengthening regional rail would be most economically beneficial”.
Boris Johnson’s rail plan: what’s in it and what was promised
Expected details of integrated rail plan, which has caused anger in north of England and Midlands
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:34 pm

What is UK citizenship worth?

New bill quietly gives powers to remove British citizenship without notice
Clause added to nationality and borders bill also appears to allow Home Office to act retrospectively in some cases

Individuals could be stripped of their British citizenship without warning under a proposed rule change quietly added to the nationality and borders bill.

Clause 9 – “Notice of decision to deprive a person of citizenship” – of the bill, which was updated earlier this month, exempts the government from having to give notice if it is not “reasonably practicable” to do so, or in the interests of national security, diplomatic relations or otherwise in the public interest.

Critics say removing citizenship, as in the case of Shamima Begum, who fled Britain as a schoolgirl to join Islamic State in Syria, is already a contentious power, and scrapping the requirement for notice would make the home secretary’s powers even more draconian.

Frances Webber, the vice-chair of the Institute of Race Relations, said: “This amendment sends the message that certain citizens, despite being born and brought up in the UK and having no other home, remain migrants in this country. Their citizenship, and therefore all their rights, are precarious and contingent.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:25 pm

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:58 pm

To be fair to the MP's position shouldn't he compare working people to working people, or did I misunderstand something? It seemed the MP's concern was people being forced out of a second job, but his previous comments --used to make him look hypocritical-- dealt with people who weren't working at all, right?

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:47 pm

Yeah, that's about right. But it does highlight a conceptual issue, where it's considered somewhat unfair for those who are already pretty well off to be made poorer because they have a certain life-style or position to maintain, while it appears equally unfair for those with very little to be made better off regardless. I think this one rings because although conservative theory says that unemployment and poverty are basically the result of individual failings the pandemic has demonstrated that it's at least as much about broader social-economic circumstances beyond individual control. The overwhelming majority of UK welfare recipients are either in low-paid work or drawing the state contributory pension.

I think the MP is right to be concerned about moves from government that might hit MPs incomes, but that concern doesn't seem to extend to the unemployed, the sick and disabled, and/or the poor etc. That's where the hypocrisy sits.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:08 pm

Tories only think about one thing...
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:59 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:47 pm
Yeah, that's about right. But it does highlight a conceptual issue, where it's considered somewhat unfair for those who are already pretty well off to be made poorer because they have a certain life-style or position to maintain, while it appears equally unfair for those with very little to be made better off regardless. I think this one rings because although conservative theory says that unemployment and poverty are basically the result of individual failings the pandemic has demonstrated that it's at least as much about broader social-economic circumstances beyond individual control. The overwhelming majority of UK welfare recipients are either in low-paid work or drawing the state contributory pension.

I think the MP is right to be concerned about moves from government that might hit MPs incomes, but that concern doesn't seem to extend to the unemployed, the sick and disabled, and/or the poor etc. That's where the hypocrisy sits.
That makes perfect sense. What bothers me is the lack of a clear way to establish best practices that doesn't rely on appealing to the worst in us. Whether it's conservatives talking, or the left, the standard method of garnering support --in cases like this-- is to elicit envy. Obviously we could argue that it's not envy but an innate sense of fairness we are appealing to.

But in either case everyone faces the same problem: how to argue for who gets how much of what. And whether you're talking about the working, or the unemployed, the discussion around the problem is the same. The working person rightly feels cheated by the unemployed, but is asked not to question how his employer is cheating him. The unemployed rightly feels abandoned, but is asked not to consider the cost of supporting him.

Government is supposed to provide the process by which we arrive at sound decisions about these issues. But as seen in our popular discussions like the video above, we just play games to justify maintaining that only one side or practice or whatever is truly unfair. But they don't stand up to scrutiny. It turns out the unemployed is being treated unfairly, and so is the worker.

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:47 pm

Aye. We all suffer within the current manifestation of our Capitalist Reality. And perhaps the wealthy feel they have a greater burden than the poor, because it is they who have far more to loose than £20 s week.

The MP said that we need to accept that politicians are human. He's right - we're all too keen to cast them as monsters and demons when they're just people like us. I just hope that sentiment can be given more weight, enough so it is applied to everyone without question. It seems that this, as much as anything else, places me to the Left of the aisle.



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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:02 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:59 pm
The working person rightly feels cheated by the unemployed
I don't feel cheated by the unemployed.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:12 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:02 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:59 pm
The working person rightly feels cheated by the unemployed
I don't feel cheated by the unemployed.
:this:

It is in the interest of conservative forces in society to sow division in the ranks of working people. Sometimes they do it by encouraging racial division, but Sean's remark illustrates the demonisation of the "dole bludger" by the conservative press...
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:34 am

You're not everybody. Plenty of working people feel uneasy about money being given to those who don't work. It's not a conservative plot. It's a perfectly mundane response to feeling working for money while others don't is a raw deal.

You two illustrate my point about games perfectly.

What is needed to break out of that is a focus on processes that use something other than our worst instincts to support action. Maybe some movement away from constant moralizing would help. :dunno:

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:53 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:47 pm
Aye. We all suffer within the current manifestation of our Capitalist Reality. And perhaps the wealthy feel they have a greater burden than the poor, because it is they who have far more to loose than £20 s week.

The MP said that we need to accept that politicians are human. He's right - we're all too keen to cast them as monsters and demons when they're just people like us. I just hope that sentiment can be given more weight, enough so it is applied to everyone without question. It seems that this, as much as anything else, places me to the Left of the aisle.
--their greater burden being similar to the greater risks they take... :lol:

This is exactly the kind of game I was talking about. They don't stand up to scrutiny, but we all insist on using them.

What would it even look like if our politicians and "thought leaders" attempted to support their positions with anything else?

Can you imagine a robust explanation of why the unemployed receives x amount and the boss makes that much more?

Don't we usually just hear the games e.g. 'people would like an extra 20, but they may not need it', 'risk is greater at the top'...

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:22 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:34 am
You're not everybody. Plenty of working people feel uneasy about money being given to those who don't work. It's not a conservative plot. It's a perfectly mundane response to feeling working for money while others don't is a raw deal.

You two illustrate my point about games perfectly.

What is needed to break out of that is a focus on processes that use something other than our worst instincts to support action. Maybe some movement away from constant moralizing would help. :dunno:
Well, those "Plenty of working people" are either ignorant dupes or arseholes with zero compassion. Certainly in the US, and in many other countries, working people are on thin ice; industries collapse, you are left with no job through no fault of their own; just ask the once working stiffs in your rust belt, or the eastern coalfields...

And here (and I bet in the US) unemployment benefits or their equivalent are barely enough to survive at a very impoverished level. Don't you understand that the vast majority of those unemployed would much rather the extra funds that come from working, but the jobs just aren't fucking there!
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:28 am

Nope. They're just regular people, some of whom may have even collected unemployment at various times. But they feel uneasy about the possibility of getting by without a job.

We aren't only talking about collecting unemployment between jobs after all.

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