The state of the UK

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:00 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:34 am
You're not everybody.
No. And not everybody feels the way you described.
You two illustrate my point about games perfectly.


Bullshit. Pointing out your ridiculous assertion isn't playing games.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:01 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:28 am
Nope. They're just regular people, some of whom may have even collected unemployment at various times. But they feel uneasy about the possibility of getting by without a job.

We aren't only talking about collecting unemployment between jobs after all.
That is a very different statement to your earlier one. Clearly, anyone employed today in most blue-collar jobs in the west would "feel uneasy about the possibility of getting by without a job". That is simply a rational fear of an all too likely possibility that greatly affects one's life. But you were implying before that people in jobs are, at the very least, disdainful of those of unemployment benefits. For any who feel that way, the old phrase "there but for the grace of god go I" should apply...

I know, I know, as a confirmed atheist I should avoid such phrases, but it is too pithy and apt to discard... :tea:
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:15 am

I think it should be pointed out that wanting to work isn't a necessary reaction to barely getting by. I'm not even sure how common it is. Many of us are perfectly capable of just barely making it, or not even making it --indefinitely. My alcoholic dad being a perfect example. Of course he had several strokes rather young. We can guess which aspect either side will focus on when playing games.

The thing is I don't think it has to matter. I don't see how either type of person facing unemployment is better off without it. But when discussing how much to give, for how long etc, the reasoning can hopefully be grounded in something that is both not arbitrary after stripping away ideology, and not promoted solely with appeals to our emotions.

This goes for all sides too. So, the same applies to attempts to argue that large disparities in pay make sense. There must be something there better than the right's ideology.

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:21 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:01 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:28 am
Nope. They're just regular people, some of whom may have even collected unemployment at various times. But they feel uneasy about the possibility of getting by without a job.

We aren't only talking about collecting unemployment between jobs after all.
That is a very different statement to your earlier one. Clearly, anyone employed today in most blue-collar jobs in the west would "feel uneasy about the possibility of getting by without a job". That is simply a rational fear of an all too likely possibility that greatly affects one's life. But you were implying before that people in jobs are, at the very least, disdainful of those of unemployment benefits. For any who feel that way, the old phrase "there but for the grace of god go I" should apply...

I know, I know, as a confirmed atheist I should avoid such phrases, but it is too pithy and apt to discard... :tea:
It's not different, and working people are disdainful of unemployment. The mistake you're making is limiting unemployment to a very specific case. But the video I was responding to and the talk around this subject in general deals with a lot more.

For example, I say close every fucking eyesore, health hazard, poorly run, yadda, yadda business out there and continue to pay everyone who would have been forced to work such jobs.

That's not a popular position.

Okay, so it's a bit extreme. A less extreme example from the video was paying people without jobs enough to take a holiday...

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:59 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:21 am
It's not different, and working people are disdainful of unemployment.
Yes, it is clearly different to your earlier statement:

"Plenty of working people feel uneasy about money being given to those who don't work."

That is saying that working people are disdainful of the unemployed, somehow feeling they are cheating, getting money for doing nothing. Now there probably are some working people who might feel that way, but they should understand that:

1. Unemployment benefits are a pittance, even compared to the low wages that capitalism forces on the working poor

2. Most of the unemployed are not gleefully thumbing their noses at the poor patsys who have to work, but would dearly love a job if one were available

3. As I implied earlier, they are one industry collapse from joining those they disdain themselves...
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Hermit » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:56 am

Oh, we have a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party. The Corporate Democratic Party as typified by Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. No, nothing conservative about it. Nothing at all. At least not if 19th century liberalism is still regarded as progressive today.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:13 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:59 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:21 am
It's not different, and working people are disdainful of unemployment.
Yes, it is clearly different to your earlier statement:

"Plenty of working people feel uneasy about money being given to those who don't work."

That is saying that working people are disdainful of the unemployed, somehow feeling they are cheating, getting money for doing nothing. Now there probably are some working people who might feel that way, but they should understand that:

1. Unemployment benefits are a pittance, even compared to the low wages that capitalism forces on the working poor

2. Most of the unemployed are not gleefully thumbing their noses at the poor patsys who have to work, but would dearly love a job if one were available

3. As I implied earlier, they are one industry collapse from joining those they disdain themselves...
Again, you're limiting unemployment to a single case. But when I say working people feel cheated by unemployment, the term unemployment includes much more than collecting a check after losing your job. For example, it includes the idea that the people collecting unemployment should get enough to go on holiday, as was mentioned in the video I responded to. It's hardly surprising people will object to this.

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:20 am

Once again a very Anglo-Saxon point of view with an awful amount of Americanism thrown in for good measure. I think you will find a totally different attitude to unemployment amongst the Northern European Social Democracies. Here unemployment is part of life. Not discriminated against but accepted it can happen to anyone. Luckily just now unemployment is under 3% which is considered as zero.
Under the WW (Unemployment Law) you will get a minimum of 70% of your last wage for two years. Because it is not taxed you end up with almost the same income. You are expected to work with the government agencies to find a new job. Doing nothing is not accepted. If you had a permanent contract the path is completely different.
Also here everyone has the right to "bijstand" (support) which is calculated the minimum required to live. It is very basic but does also kick in many other benefits (child, house etc). Being on bijstand is not looked down upon or resented. You can get holiday benefit if the social services thinks it would benefit you.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:00 pm

I would guess most people don't resent kinds of unemployment. Even Republicans here don't. That misses the point.

"Unemployment" is more in our conversations today, and what we hope to achieve politically than either paying you after you've lost your job, or just enough to survive. When discussing unemployment beyond those narrow limits people feel they may be getting cheated e.g. why should they get a holiday.

Everyone manipulates these feelings to garner support for their position. These "games" dominate our politics.

It's definitely interesting that the Netherlands seems to have made so much progress with far less resistance. I wonder though if there is much of a difference in how it's talked about. You suggest there is.

But what is the response to raising unemployment to above just existing? What will the arguments for and against look like?

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45 am

The NHS is facing its hardest winter ever - but the Tories are still bent on destroying it
Polly Toynbee wrote:The health and social care bill has been sabotaged by government ideologues still in thrall to privatisation

Image
Ambulances queue outside A&Es that can’t admit patients, with beds blocked by people waiting for social care.’

A screeching U-turn to save northern homeowners’ inheritances, or plunging his bulldozer through his own “red wall” seats? Regardless of the vote on how much people will pay for the government’s social care reforms, Boris Johnson has never had a plan to rescue England’s stricken social care system itself. After this vote, not a penny extra will be put towards helping the 2,000 frail people whose requests for care are refused every day. Nor is there any strategy to integrate social care with the NHS. That great opportunity has been blown away.

Indeed, the health and social care bill stumbling through the Commons this week seems curiously irrelevant to the oncoming NHS crisis. With the whole system sinking fast, the bill puts the health service through yet another re-disorganisation, while social care slides into collapse. Deckchair-shifting on the Titanic comes to mind.

Covid is not the only reason the health service is on a trolley in the corridor, even though a pandemic was foreseeable and foreseen, but never prepared for. Let’s take the pulse of the NHS: waiting lists, so low in 2010, have just hit 6m and are rising fast (remember they had already reached more than 4m by the time Covid struck). Why are they so high? The answer is that for a decade, annual NHS funding increases have been at their lowest levels ever, far below what’s required of the population increase (especially of elderly people). The result has been “efficiency” cuts of 17,000 beds and more than 100,000 unfilled vacancies for doctors and nurses, whose training places fell under the axe of George Osborne’s first budget. That’s why ambulances queue outside A&Es that can’t admit patients, with beds blocked by people waiting for social care.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:57 pm

Now Jeremy Hunt, the health minister who axed those 100,000 jobs under Cameron/Osborne, and the man who's written two books on how to privatise the UK health sector, says that we need a long-term strategy for the NHS focused on training and skills retention.

Billions more funding for NHS will be wasted without hiring thousands more nurses and doctors, says former Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt (Daily Mail)

Oh, the irony.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:34 pm

Chumocracy.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:55 am

What is Barbados doing? Just following the mother country taking a totally illogical step to chumocracy and further corruption. The rich just want to get richer.

Barbados parts way with Queen and becomes world’s newest republic
President Sandra Mason was sworn in at a ceremony in the capital Bridgetown attended by Prince Charles and the singer Rihanna

After 396 years, the sun has set on the British monarchy’s reign over the Caribbean island of Barbados, with a handover ceremony at midnight on Monday marking the birth of the world’s newest republic.

As the clock struck 12, the Royal Standard flag representing the Queen was lowered over a crowded Heroes Square in Bridgetown and Carol Roberts-Reifer, chief executive officer of the National Cultural Foundation, made the declaration of Barbados’ transition to its new constitutional status.

Guests in the square applauded as Dame Sandra Mason was sworn in as president by the chief justice and took the oath of allegiance to her country. Hundreds of people lining Chamberlain Bridge in the capital cheered and a 21-gun salute fired as the national anthem was played. Barbadian singer Rihanna also attended the ceremony and was declared a national hero.

“Republic Barbados has set sail on her maiden voyage,” Mason said in her inauguration speech as the first president of the country, recognising the “complex, fractured and turbulent world” it would need to navigate.

“Our country must dream big dreams and fight to realise them,” the former governor-general told those gathered for the ceremony.
FFS Just who are they kidding? It will become another playground for the rich of the world.
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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:18 pm

"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: The state of the UK

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:27 pm

Sliding into the abyss.

As we turn away, Boris Johnson is grabbing more power. Where is the opposition?
George Monbiot wrote:The government is adding terrifying amendments to the policing bill, putting the UK on a path to dictatorship

Whenever you watch a documentary about a dictator’s path to power, there comes a moment when you think: “Why didn’t people do something? They could have stopped him while there was still time.” We have now reached this moment. As Boris Johnson rams yet more powers into the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill, a vaguely democratic nation is sliding towards autocracy.

It was bad enough when I wrote about this legislation last week. After the bill had mostly passed through parliament and could be properly debated, the government slipped in a series of terrifying amendments. By curtailing the right to protest, it already amounted to the most oppressive legislation tabled by a government of this country since the end of the second world war.

But now, it’s even worse. In a private letter to members of the House of Lords, the government says it intends “to introduce a new offence of interfering with the operation of key infrastructure, such as the strategic road network, railways, sea ports, airports, oil refineries and printing presses, carrying a maximum penalty of 12 months’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine, or both”.


If we let this pass, and if one day there are documentaries that cover this moment, our descendants will be astonished. Not because the people who could have stopped this were terrified into inaction, as the opponents of other proto-dictatorships were. But because they couldn’t be bothered.
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