The Coronavirus Thread

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Seabass
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Seabass » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:28 am

NineBerry wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:58 pm
(I won't comment on party affiliation)
Gee, I wonder which one's which... :ddpan:
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:30 am

The red ones are the communists, right?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:21 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:31 pm
NineBerry wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:18 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:12 pm
Scientific proof? Hardly. Grabbing at straws once again. A simple question; how were they used? Which protocol? The dirty old rag? Or the fresh disposable which is never disposed of.
It doesn't matter. The data suggests a mask mandate works overall, because a lot of people will not use an old rag but a nice mask they wash often.

It's like saying telling people to brush their teeth doesn't increase public health because you don't know how often they change their tooth brushed and how much tooth paste they put on it and whether they really brush for 3 minutes and not only 1 1/2
How about Belgium.
Exactly.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:41 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:12 pm
Scientific proof? Hardly. Grabbing at straws once again. A simple question; how were they used? Which protocol? The dirty old rag? Or the fresh disposable which is never disposed of.
Who mentioned scientific proof? NineBerry did mention "Correlation doesn't imply causation but can give a good hint...".

Meanwhile, do you have a better explanation for the divergence in new infections between cities in Oklahoma where mask wearing was mandated and those where it was not? I mean other than some conspiracy theory or your mantra that data cannot be relied on.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:47 am

The numbers are fudged. They are boosted in one state because the government wants to control its population, and reduced in the other state because the government doesn't want to control its population. Or something like that.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:09 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:47 am
The numbers are fudged. They are boosted in one stste because the government wants to control its population, and reduced in the other state because the government doesn't want to control its population. Or something like that.
Close. The numbers are boosted in the cities in Oklahoma that are governed by the conservatives because they want to control the population. The numbers are reduced in the cities in Oklahoma that are governed by the neoliberals because they want to crank up the economy and profitability again, regardless of how many more people die from the Rona.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by NineBerry » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:33 am

The study actually doesn't say anything about party affiliation. I only made a joke because I found the choice of colours for the diagram funny :)

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:41 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:12 pm
Scientific proof? Hardly. Grabbing at straws once again. A simple question; how were they used? Which protocol? The dirty old rag? Or the fresh disposable which is never disposed of.
Who mentioned scientific proof? NineBerry did mention "Correlation doesn't imply causation but can give a good hint...".

Meanwhile, do you have a better explanation for the divergence in new infections between cities in Oklahoma where mask wearing was mandated and those where it was not? I mean other than some conspiracy theory or your mantra that data cannot be relied on.
Which protocol do they follow when wearing them? There are just so many variables involved plus no scientific evidence or trials. Just sticking an old rag in front of your face is far from scientific.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:26 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:41 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:12 pm
Scientific proof? Hardly. Grabbing at straws once again. A simple question; how were they used? Which protocol? The dirty old rag? Or the fresh disposable which is never disposed of.
Who mentioned scientific proof? NineBerry did mention "Correlation doesn't imply causation but can give a good hint...".

Meanwhile, do you have a better explanation for the divergence in new infections between cities in Oklahoma where mask wearing was mandated and those where it was not? I mean other than some conspiracy theory or your mantra that data cannot be relied on.
Which protocol do they follow when wearing them? There are just so many variables involved...
Go on. Explain how the variable (mandated mask wearing compared to no mandated mask wearing) has no bearing on the differential in new case rates. Is it how masks were used? Which protocol was used? Whether the masks were dirty old rags? Or disposable masks that kept getting reused?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:43 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am
Which protocol do they follow when wearing them? There are just so many variables involved plus no scientific evidence or trials. Just sticking an old rag in front of your face is far from scientific.
There are multiple studies showing how masks can help reduce the risks of infection from airborne agents. The infection rates in the community are directly related to social behaviour, because the primary means of infection is human-human contact. Contact indoors is more risky than contact outdoors: short periods of contact are less risky that longer periods, etc. None of this is controversial when it comes to things like the common cold, or even the regular seasonal flu. But, apparently, when it comes to Covid-19 the bleedin' obvious takes a leap out of the window and it all becomes a malicious lie cooked up by immensely powerful but malignant agents to control the world by destroying the economy - or whatever.

Masks play a part in limiting the risk the potentially infected person poses to others, and by that they play a part in helping to reduce the risk in and for society overall. The literature is quite clear on this, and to dispute it is to risk falling into the realms of science denial. You're disputing it, and the only justification you seem to have left is ontological: that nobody can really prove anything about any thing because nobody can really know anything about any thing. At this point, on this matter, your views basically appear to be religious in nature - a matter of Faith. If your faith brings you comfort in trying times then that's fine - that's a private, personal matter. It's not a reliable basis for public health policy.

Masks, hand washing, avoiding public transport, staying away from the elderly, maintaining social distance in shops and at work, working from home, limiting contact between households, and all the similar things some countries have brought in (to various extents): none of these are a cure - they're prophylactic measures to reduce overall risk in a specific situation. They're a response, not the cause. The efficacy of these measures to limit risk would apply just as broadly to the cross-infections that result in the common cold or seasonal flu. The difference with Covid-19 is that it is significantly more infectious and deadly than the common cold or the flu.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:55 am

Well according to our RIVM it is all important just in case it has an influence on case rates which is still being doubted. As logical as some people believe in wearing masks is also the way it is used which very few do correct. The ones do use them, not me as it is still not mandatory, often pull them out their pocket or handbag. Some look pretty shabby and worn. Often they are disposables that should have been disposed of days ago. The users usually touch the mask all over instead of just touching the strings. How many keep it in a plastic sealable bag and sanitise their hands immediately after taking the thing off?
Another point is cost. Disposables cost €1 a throw. If you followed the guidelines and was working five days a week using public transport you would need 3 a day if you stayed inside during your lunch break. That is €15 a week.
Who uses 3 a day?
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:16 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:43 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am
Which protocol do they follow when wearing them? There are just so many variables involved plus no scientific evidence or trials. Just sticking an old rag in front of your face is far from scientific.
There are multiple studies showing how masks can help reduce the risks of infection from airborne agents. The infection rates in the community are directly related to social behaviour, because the primary means of infection is human-human contact. Contact indoors is more risky than contact outdoors: short periods of contact are less risky that longer periods, etc. None of this is controversial when it comes to things like the common cold, or even the regular seasonal flu. But, apparently, when it comes to Covid-19 the bleedin' obvious takes a leap out of the window and it all becomes a malicious lie cooked up by immensely powerful but malignant agents to control the world by destroying the economy - or whatever.

Those were lab studies in perfect conditions.
Masks play a part in limiting the risk the potentially infected person poses to others, and by that they play a part in helping to reduce the risk in and for society overall. The literature is quite clear on this, and to dispute it is to risk falling into the realms of science denial. You're disputing it, and the only justification you seem to have left is ontological: that nobody can really prove anything about any thing because nobody can really know anything about any thing. At this point, on this matter, your views basically appear to be religious in nature - a matter of Faith. If your faith brings you comfort in trying times then that's fine - that's a private, personal matter. It's not a reliable basis for public health policy.
Where is all this great biased literature? The experts here are not swallowing it but you and your like still after everything and the massive increase in numbers in countries where masks are mandatory according to the data you blindly accept are still trying to push the agenda. Just because Mr Peacock thinks it is correct then it must be.
Masks, hand washing, avoiding public transport, staying away from the elderly, maintaining social distance in shops and at work, working from home, limiting contact between households, and all the similar things some countries have brought in (to various extents): none of these are a cure - they're prophylactic measures to reduce overall risk in a specific situation. They're a response, not the cause. The efficacy of these measures to limit risk would apply just as broadly to the cross-infections that result in the common cold or seasonal flu. The difference with Covid-19 is that it is significantly more infectious and deadly than the common cold or the flu.
Here the misuse of masks is not even been addressed because it does not matter. How strict is the protocol being applied in your Covid free country. Do you have health officials going around randomly testing masks? Of course you dont. Why? After all this is the Silver Bullet and must be kept spotless. The simple truth is they dont work but psychological effect is more effective. It keeps the threat threshold up and keeps the people involved
Last edited by Scot Dutchy on Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:18 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am
There are just so many variables involved plus no scientific evidence or trials.
...except for the scientific evidence and the trials.

We've even sent you links to these.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by rainbow » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:21 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:16 am

Those were lab studies in perfect conditions.
Yes. It is called Scientific Evidence.
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Re: The Coronavirus Thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:23 am

rainbow wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:18 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:46 am
There are just so many variables involved plus no scientific evidence or trials.
...except for the scientific evidence and the trials.

We've even sent you links to these.
:funny: :funny: :funny: Anecdotal evidence counts these days? Of course when you have no accurate scientific evidence especially in your fictive country.
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