"Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:27 pm

Rum wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:49 pm
Health care is pretty good for the elderly here - as good as for younger people anyway.

Social care if you have very little money on the other hand is pretty bad.

I agree with the drift of this though. Comparing the various systems is difficult. Perhaps user satisfaction is the best indicator however subjective and adrift from real outcomes it might be.
Health care for the elderly? Where in the UK? Is that a joke. How many hours on a trolley even before you get to A&E? They have given up on the four hour rule.
In Scotland it was lucky my mum had her own money. Dont mention social carers. But I am of course criticising the dump I left.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:44 pm
I don't know man. I would have agreed with you not that long ago. But a bit of digging reveals a lot of bullshit going around. (e.g. a third of adult Americans didn't have access to healthcare because of cost...the UK is the world's best provider of healthcare not tied to wealth, record numbers of Americans are going broke paying for healthcare)

These are bullshit claims, and they are everywhere.

What about the inequalities in healthcare provision for people with severe mental illness
What about the horrible healthcare provided to the elderly in the UK
Or the near impossibility of seeing a specialist unless you're fucking dying in the Netherregions

--these are probably all bullshit claims too...maybe not?

:haironfuckingfire:

So when it comes to what is or isn't controversial regarding healthcare and systems that are working I'm going to be a bit more skeptical going forward.
I totally understand that, and also have some serious concerns about both the rose-tinted or shit-stinking assertions that are so often bandied about. I'd agree that mental health provision in the UK is, at best, patchy, and as a service has been reduced to a facility for managing crisis events. Social care for the elderly has it's own problems, which are at once demographic, structural and resourced-based, and children's social care services are also under a lot of similar pressures. On the other hand, if you receive a cancer diagnosis you are pretty much guaranteed to be seen by a specialist within required 4 weeks and to undertake treatment within 4 weeks of that appointment.

The government say that we are spending more on health and social care services as a percentage of GDP than ever before, and looking at the books shows that this is indeed the case. But what these figures do not reflect is the massive restructuring of health and social care service which the last three Tory governments have undertaken since they were elected under David Cameron in 2010.

Image

As you might remember I used to work in NHS admin, and I could bang on about these issues for ages -- don't get me started! -- but I think my previous point, about access and cost, do offer an interesting and relevant point of comparison - particularly as the UK has moved further towards a system where providers charged with statutory obligations are forced to outsource a range of service to the lowest-bidder in the private sector in circumstances where the resource allocation of those private concers are placed outside the realm of public scrutiny on the basis of so-called 'commercial confidentiality'. What we do know about those 'delivery partners' though is that they are paying less people lower wages while posting increasing profits - following a long-standing Tory model of turning public funds into private profits.


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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:27 pm
Rum wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:49 pm
Health care is pretty good for the elderly here - as good as for younger people anyway.

Social care if you have very little money on the other hand is pretty bad.

I agree with the drift of this though. Comparing the various systems is difficult. Perhaps user satisfaction is the best indicator however subjective and adrift from real outcomes it might be.
Health care for the elderly? Where in the UK? Is that a joke. How many hours on a trolley even before you get to A&E? They have given up on the four hour rule.
In Scotland it was lucky my mum had her own money. Dont mention social carers. But I am of course criticising the dump I left.
It might be more enlightening and helpful if you could highlight some examples of the health system in the Netherlands.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:27 pm
Rum wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:49 pm
Health care is pretty good for the elderly here - as good as for younger people anyway.

Social care if you have very little money on the other hand is pretty bad.

I agree with the drift of this though. Comparing the various systems is difficult. Perhaps user satisfaction is the best indicator however subjective and adrift from real outcomes it might be.
Health care for the elderly? Where in the UK? Is that a joke. How many hours on a trolley even before you get to A&E? They have given up on the four hour rule.
In Scotland it was lucky my mum had her own money. Dont mention social carers. But I am of course criticising the dump I left.
It might be more enlightening and helpful if you could highlight some examples of the health system in the Netherlands.
I have done that often enough. I myself have been a heavy consumer of Dutch health care. So what should I say? I have been this last nine months in A&E (SEH as it is called here) six times. All the times the staff have been waiting for me. The ambulance informs the SEH of our arrival and my condition. That is all anecdotal of course.

Read the Euro Health Consumer Index 2017 for further details why we have the best health care in the EU. The 2018 report has not been published yet.

At present of course with my IPF things have changed. I am kept under strict monitoring system as my condition can change at any time. I have had 13 appointments in two months. I am now drug free. There is no medicine for it. I have always the euthanasia option as well if things turn badly.

Idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis

Not nice.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Hermit » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:37 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:24 pm
Here's an interesting Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... b7b0f92b98
Yes, interesting. Particularly since the Concord study does not show what it purports to describe. From The Lancet:
Survival rates are inappropriate statistics for the comparison of countries that differ in the extent they screen for different cancers. To understand why, it is helpful to know how the 5-year survival statistic is calculated: the number of patients diagnosed with cancer still alive 5 years after diagnosis divided by the number of all patients diagnosed with cancer. The key term to notice in the calculation is diagnosed, which appears in the numerator and denominator of the survival statistic. By definition, screening detects cancer at a microscopic state, long before it causes symptoms. Because of this property, screening inflates the survival statistic in two ways: firstly, by prolonging the period in which a patient is known to have cancer (lead-time bias), and secondly, by including people with non-progressive cancer (overdiagnosis bias). However, for the 20 most common solid tumours in the USA, the inflation in 5-year survival rates has no correlation with a decrease in mortality rates—a fact unknown to most medical professionals offering screening. Because of lead-time and overdiagnosis bias, differences in 5-year survival rates between health systems differing in screening uptake can rather be an artifact of the extent of screening than a valid proof of improved cancer control. Such a proof can only come from a reduction of cancer-specific mortality rates, the denominator of which includes all (not just diagnosed) people in the investigated screening and non-screening groups, resulting in the rates not being dependent on country-specific diagnostic procedures.
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:24 pm
From there you get: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/business/04view.html
Great. All the right wing talking points present and accounted for. No surprises there, for the article was not written by a health reporter but by an economist, and it is not published in a health or lifestyle type section of the paper, but in a section titled "Business Day".
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:24 pm
I'm not sure why you think the comparisons are not suspect and tricky. :dunno:
The topic is way more complicated than the charts show, but I don't see why the comparison is suspect and tricky. Your attempt to paint it as such has failed at this stage, though I am open to persuasion. Should I change my mind on the matter, it won't be the first time I've done such a thing, and I hope it won't be the last.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:31 am

You say I've failed to convince you it's tricky in the same post you provide analysis of the data which was necessary because a more rough, less nuanced reading could not uncover the reality.

This looks less like a failure on my part and more like a stubborn refusal on your part to give an inch.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Hermit » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:43 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:31 am
You say I've failed to convince you it's tricky in the same post you provide analysis of the data which was necessary because a more rough, less nuanced reading could not uncover the reality.

This looks less like a failure on my part and more like a stubborn refusal on your part to give an inch.
Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant with "tricky". Immediately following "suspect", this is actually of great likelihood. Also indicated by my agreement with you: "The topic is way more complicated than the charts show..."
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 am

Pick up your sword. I'll fucking run you through.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:00 am

:lol: Yarr!! Sabres at dawn!! :pirate:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:04 am

:grr:

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:55 am

Oh noes!!!

'Google Deals New Blow to Alt-Right Social Network Gab'
Google and Mozilla banned a browser extension made by the social network Gab on Thursday, dealing another blow to the racist alt-right’s favorite social platform.

The new bans target Dissenter, a browser extension created by Gab that adds a parallel comment section to any web page on the internet. The decision from the two tech companies makes it harder for people to add Dissenter to their browsers.

The extension allowed Gab commenters to avoid moderation on the website’s usual comment sections, leaving their posts instead on a separate overlay visible to anyone with the Dissenter plug-in installed in Google’s Chrome or Mozilla’s Firefox. As a result, Dissenter comments often featured the same discussions popular with Gab’s far-right user base: fervent support for Trump and Gamergate-style complaints over perceived “social justice warrior” infiltration of various video games and movies by liberals.

In a statement, a Mozilla spokesperson told The Daily Beast that Dissenter had violated Mozilla’s rules against hate speech.

“Mozilla does not endorse hate speech and we do not permit our platforms to be used to promote such content,” the statement reads.

Gab founder Andrew Torba said in a statement that Dissenter had been blocked by tech companies that “want to destroy free expression online.” In response to the bans that make it harder to install Dissenter on mainstream browsers, Torba claims that Gab will now be launching its own browser as well.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:59 am

Oh dear. What a shame. :tea:
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by JimC » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:02 am

Wait, our member from Yellowknife is using the "racist alt-right’s favorite social platform"?

How utterly bizarre!
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:39 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:55 am
Oh noes!!!

'Google Deals New Blow to Alt-Right Social Network Gab'
Google and Mozilla banned a browser extension made by the social network Gab on Thursday, dealing another blow to the racist alt-right’s favorite social platform.

The new bans target Dissenter, a browser extension created by Gab that adds a parallel comment section to any web page on the internet. The decision from the two tech companies makes it harder for people to add Dissenter to their browsers.

The extension allowed Gab commenters to avoid moderation on the website’s usual comment sections, leaving their posts instead on a separate overlay visible to anyone with the Dissenter plug-in installed in Google’s Chrome or Mozilla’s Firefox. As a result, Dissenter comments often featured the same discussions popular with Gab’s far-right user base: fervent support for Trump and Gamergate-style complaints over perceived “social justice warrior” infiltration of various video games and movies by liberals.

In a statement, a Mozilla spokesperson told The Daily Beast that Dissenter had violated Mozilla’s rules against hate speech.

“Mozilla does not endorse hate speech and we do not permit our platforms to be used to promote such content,” the statement reads.

Gab founder Andrew Torba said in a statement that Dissenter had been blocked by tech companies that “want to destroy free expression online.” In response to the bans that make it harder to install Dissenter on mainstream browsers, Torba claims that Gab will now be launching its own browser as well.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:06 am

Muttonhead blowhard asshats tick all the boxes, exemplifying the traits in the title of this thread.

'Notre Dame fire: Alt-right conspiracy theorists are using the cathedral blaze to spread anti-Muslim rhetoric'
"If the Nortre [sic] Dame fire serves to spur the White man into action—to sieze [sic] power in his countries, in Europe, in the world—then it will have served a glorious purpose and we will one day bless this catastrophe," wrote Richard Spencer, an alt-right commentator.

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