The End of NATO

[Clinton Huxley]

Trump's annual performance review is coming up. Putin has promised him that he can have the "Piss Tape" back if he dismantles NATO.

Is NATO's goose cooked or is there life in the old dog yet? Should the EU throw the goose (cooked, see earlier) out with the bath-water or give the dog some biscuits?

Do we still need NATO? Should we consider the creation of WETO and tell the Yanks to bugger off? Or do we not need a Continental defence policy at all, as the Roosians aren't really a threat?

[Scot Dutchy]

I have given my comments often enough over NATO.

NATO was part of the big American war game called "The Cold War". The biggest con of all time and the Americans made trillions out of arms sales and development. Its use by date has long passed. The trouble is for the Yanks it would be a disaster to disband it. What would they do with all the men and equipment? The forces has also absorbed so many unemployed people from the lower reaches of American society. How about their arms industries? Which is why Trump is pushing the members to pay more and buy American weapons.

America is a world aggressor and always has been. We should break off military connections with it. It creates more problems than it solves. Does Russia want to invade us? Of course not. What for? It is really time to give peace a chance. Get aggression out our bit of the world. Leave Trump and his generals to play war games with themselves.

[Scot Dutchy]

The same applies to the UN which has never been a tool for peace.

[Brian Peacock]

For all NATO's failings, and there's been a few, the principle of international cooperation on defence matters is a sound one. When nations commit to things like collective security, burden-sharing,and defence planning they not only reduce the risk of conflict between them but they strengthen political, social, and economic ties, further reducing the risk of conflict. Defence cooperation solidifies certain diplomatic standards and normalises peacetime over war.

NATO might have been a reactive arrangement, and yes, in part inspired by the US's cold war mindset, but that ignores the context of post-War Europe - and besides, it's moved well beyond that now. It is chiefly a political alliance rather than a defence force predicated on opposing the onward march of the Soviet menace. And yet with Putin prowling around at the borders of Europe that political alliance is needed more than ever. Even if the chance of actual conflict between Russia and Europe is slim to non-existent (neither population would thank their leaders if that happened) a line still needs to be drawn against kleptocratic dictatorships.

Trump is a me-me-me-America-Firster, who doesn't bring diplomatic skills and experience to the NATO table but his property developer mindset, a mindset that abhors standards and regulations and, well, any limits on his desire to do exactly what he wants. That's how he's always operated isn't it(?) In his heart Trump knows he's a sinner, that he's not really good enough to sit at the big table with the adults, that he's not really equipped to slog through and deal with knotty issues - he's all about his image and what he thinks makes him look good in his own eyes. He admires strength and power, but he craves acceptance by those who he sees as more powerful than him, so of course he admires brutes like Putin, and lil'Kim, Xi Jinping, and those nefarious Arab Oligarchs - not for their virtues but for their willingness to undermine and disregard civilised norms.

This is what makes him dangerous, because he's always inclined to side with the demons over the angels, mostly because he personally identifies with indifference over empathy, with bullying over compromise, with craven yearning over reasoned acceptance, and he's dangerous because he'll always try to impress those who he believes that their very callousness is what makes them powerful. He's clearly more than happy to dismiss and insult his allies and cozy up to Putin and his ilk, for when he looks at his allies he knows he's not really one of us, and if he's not one of us then, well, he must be one of them. Upsetting NATO is the best gift he could give Putin, and his handler in Moscow praise him for it and continue to play him like a fiddle - which, after all, is what Putin was trained to do, and what he has always done throughout his military and political career. Putin is the manipulator, and poor Donald is his unwitting puppet.

[Clinton Huxley]

Europe bringing a spliff to a knife fight is a strategy doomed to an unhappy ending. We've relied on the US to do the heavy-lifting and have got fat and lazy. Europe needs to work out what a post-NATO world looks like it and decide on how it is going to assert itself against hostile powers to the east and west.

[laklak]

I think we all need to sit down at the Table of Siblinghood and pass a J around.

[Clinton Huxley]

I think we all need to sit down at the Table of Siblinghood and pass a J around.

No toking in the War Room!

[Scot Dutchy]

I think we all need to sit down at the Table of Siblinghood and pass a J around.

When was the last time anyone said weapons the world out. It is all about aggression aggression.

[Brian Peacock]

Hey, why can't we all live in peace and love man? :hippie:

But we need some defensive capabilities when your neighbours are the mob.

[Scot Dutchy]

What mob? The illusion demanded by weapon suppliers and kept alive by the generals to justify their existence? The cold war was the biggest con played out by both side because both sides wanted it. Did anyone with half a brain cell did really think that someone would press the button?

[Svartalf]

Russia may no longer head the Soviet mega state, it's still a world class power, and it's already shown aplenty that it has aggressive and expansionist views... or there would not be trouble in the Ukraine, let alons in Moldova... and let's not forget Georgia and wherever the Chechen live.

[Scot Dutchy]

Russia may no longer head the Soviet mega state, it's still a world class power, and it's already shown aplenty that it has aggressive and expansionist views... or there would not be trouble in the Ukraine, let alons in Moldova... and let's not forget Georgia and wherever the Chechen live.

Please Svarty you dont believe that crap do you. Eastern Europe wants to join the EU. Nothing better than to put out stories that the Russian bear is on their heels. Is that the reason that the USA fucked the Middle East? Russia was after it.

If the had UN functioned as it was supposed too all this conflicts could have been discussed before they started but the USA only understands one thing first: Aggression in their simple mind always wins. Talking requires intelligence which is not abundant in American politics.

[Svartalf]

Eastern Europe has already for the most part Joined the EU, and the rest of it is crying at the door to be let in; but Putin wants to regain Russian influence over the previous Soviet influence sphere. And he has rebuilt the military might that dropped down during the Eltsin period, while Europe let down their individual and collective guard and dismantled its militaries. France has so few soldiers left it would not resist a clash with a seriously armed nation of similar population.

[Brian Peacock]

What mob?

States run on the Mafia model, like Russia and the US.

[Hermit]

What mob? The illusion demanded by weapon suppliers and kept alive by the generals to justify their existence?

Realpolitik is a principle. The principle is that power abhors a power vacuum. It will fill it as soon as it spots it. Realpolitik rules supreme. Always has. Weapons suppliers have not created that principle. They only exploit it.