Anti-semitism and Labour

[Rum]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43536830 - for non Brits who might be interested.

It is a real puzzle this one. Corbyn is no more an anti-Semite than I am - and I am not.

My dad 'hated' the Jews but he wasn't an anti-Semite. He was a police officer under the Mandate in the late 40s and was shot at and got close to being blown up several times by the Stern Gang and other Israeli freedom fighters - 'Jewish terrorists' as he called them. A couple of his friends were killed - so he found it hard to distance himself emotionally from his feelings about what happened to him. . I suspect that a similar process has happened with this story - the far left are conflating what they see as aggressive imperialism and the oppression of the Palestinians and going that extra bit into anti-Semite territory. A hard line to draw perhaps but it is one that should be.

[Svartalf]

well, Jews are still terrorists, and Israel was unlawfully taken by them, they should be treated like we treat the so called Daesh Islamic State and give back Palestine to the Palestinians.

[cronus]

You see where you have a issue with me Rum? See I don't believe Jews can do any wrong. And my dad was a absolute atheist. Who drove a ambulance in WW2...not a tank.

[Rum]

You see where you have a issue with me Rum? See I don't believe Jews can do any wrong. And my dad was a absolute atheist. Who drove a ambulance in WW2...not a tank.

I have no idea what you are saying.

[Svartalf]

I have, it's called pure trolling.

[Rum]

I have, it's called pure trolling.

My 'issues' with Crumple two in number - and one he can't help. The one he can help is his apparent compulsion to post the most doom laden news and speculations he can. In a world that is already scary enough I don't need that for entertainment - the main reason I come here.

As to the interchangeability issue...

[cronus]

I have, it's called pure trolling.

My 'issues' with Crumple two in number - and one he can't help. The one he can help is his apparent compulsion to post the most doom laden news and speculations he can. In a world that is already scary enough I don't need that for entertainment - the main reason I come here.

As to the interchangeability issue...

I've got hope for those who earn it or deserve it Rum. Don't forget who you passed on the stairs?

[mistermack]

The bollocks about anti semitism is a joke.

The Israel lobby try to lump any criticism of Israel in with Hitler gassing jews. The message is that Israel is beyond criticism, because of the nasty man.

Israel is a shithole country and always will be. Jews I have no problem with apart from the ones that support the shithole country. Oh, and they practice genital mutilation on babies. Oh, and they also abuse their children by indoctrinating them with utter superstitious bollocks. But the same goes for muzzies, and a lot of christians.

[Feck]

Fuck'em If you choose your religion as your identifier then I hate you Proddies Catlicks Muslames or Kykes bring them all on .
It's so fucking fashionable now to claim that insulting religion is racism. It is not.
Atheism has failed completely it's like a vegetarian lion utterly pointless.Instead of pointing out how all religions are false and highlighting
the appalling evils perpetrated on each other in it's name we shy away from saying the brutal TRUTH for fear of accusations of Racism
It's got so fucking bad you can't even claim Flat-earthers or Republicans are ignorant morons
How long before conservatives can claim it is their "culture " and I'm not allowed to call them all out as the bastards they are ?

[Brian Peacock]

Anti-Semitism is, like all bigotry and racism, a perspective about Jews as a type. I don't think Corbyn has done this, nor has any mainstream politician of any stripe for decades. Anybody saying, for example, that 'The Jews' control the money supply or manipulate world finance, that the Rothschild's secretly run the world, that Jews brainwash their children to be perpetual victims, or any of the other once-commonly held preconceptions about Jewish people are now the preserve of xenophobic nationalist and far-right leather fetishists.

What Corbyn has done is invite members of Hamas to London and call them 'friends', attended rallies in support of a Palestinian state, and supported a painter who was criticised for caricaturing a Jewish banker, and opposed the 2011 extradition of the Palestinian activist Raed Salah to Israel, who he invited for tea at the House of Commons. On the face of it Corbyn's anti-Semitism seems to be rooted in his political support for those in Palestine who want an independent nation, thus placing him in direct opposition to long-standing Israeli policy in the region.

You can read the full text of the Open Letter to Jeremy Corbyn from the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council here, but a couple of passages caught my eye...

"We conclude that he [Corbyn] cannot seriously contemplate anti-Semitism, because he is so ideologically fixed within a far left worldview that is instinctively hostile to mainstream Jewish communities."

"Again and again, Jeremy Corbyn has sided with anti-Semites rather than Jews. At best, this derives from the far left's obsessive hatred of Zionism, Zionists and Israel. At worst, it suggests a conspiratorial worldview in which mainstream Jewish communities are believed to be a hostile entity, a class enemy. "

Mainstream Jewry, or at least those who purport to represent the voice of the mainstream, are implying that the left is anti-Semitic by ideology, and thus by inclination. These comments make the press release published today a highly charged political document, especially with the local elections looming. If the message is that good Jews shouldn't vote Labour when it's in the hands of lefty anti-Semites, and that lefties are always anti-Semitic, then I think that point has been made loud, clear and strong. This is made more stark by the fact that the figures on the rise and rise of anti-Semitic sentiment and hate attacks clearly indicates that right, far-right and nationalist xenophobia is the predominant culprit.

My main point however is that criticising Israeli policy with respects to the region and to Palestine is not a denial of Israel's right to exist - to say otherwise is to declare all opposition bigoted and racist by default.

I think Israel has a right to exist, and I think that Palestinians should have their own state too. I support those who struggle to free themselves from oppressive control backed up by overwhelming military force, and so I support a Palestinian state - but that doesn't mean I hate Israel, it's Jewish population, or Jewish people generally. Those who say that I'm anti-Semitic simply by dint of advocating a negotiated peace and a two-state solution are on a hiding to nothing with me, as are those who say my criticism of Saudi Arabian jurisprudence or my objection to the Dawoodi Bohra sect's ritual mutilation of children is Islamophobic.

I endorse everyone's right to religious freedom, but that doesn't give anyone license to act like a dickhead, nor does it provide a legitimate covering excuse if or when they do.

[cronus]

For Palestinians, whatever they might be, who want to get away from Israel they've dug a lot of tunnels into it.

[Rum]

Fuck'em If you choose your religion as your identifier then I hate you Proddies Catlicks Muslames or Kykes bring them all on .
It's so fucking fashionable now to claim that insulting religion is racism. It is not.
Atheism has failed completely it's like a vegetarian lion utterly pointless.Instead of pointing out how all religions are false and highlighting
the appalling evils perpetrated on each other in it's name we shy away from saying the brutal TRUTH for fear of accusations of Racism
It's got so fucking bad you can't even claim Flat-earthers or Republicans are ignorant morons
How long before conservatives can claim it is their "culture " and I'm not allowed to call them all out as the bastards they are ?

The problem is that Islam and Judaism in particular - more so perhaps than any other religions - bundle up a sort of pseudo ethnicity with the belief system and come up with an identity. I suspect that is where the far left Antisemitism originates. They go from the specific - in terms of their grievances against the state of Israel- to the general in terms of the people of Israel - the 'Jews'.

[JimC]

well, Jews are still terrorists, and Israel was unlawfully taken by them, they should be treated like we treat the so called Daesh Islamic State and give back Palestine to the Palestinians.

Svarty, it would be better to say that the State of Israel rather than Jews in general, in this context. I think that failing to make that distinction allows anti-semitism to creep in to the political debate over Palestine.

And Rum, my father served in Palestine in WW2. He wasn't there after the war, but had British friends there who were shot at, and he was never a fan of Israel because of that...

[Svartalf]

well, what's the diffeerence between a good and a bad Jew? the good one is not Zionist.

What has happened in the levant since 1948 is a disgrace and that anybody could support that terrorist enterprise of a 'state' is beyond me... shows that decent people are fewer than one would like and that the Jews themselves have not learned the lesson they keep rubbing our noses in.

(and yes, I'm delibnerately staying ambiguous about Jews and Israelis, because so many non israeli Jews are zionists and support the crimes of Israel)

[Feck]

Yes there is particular muddy puddle of right-wing American Christians who support Israel's attempts at ethnic cleansing
Because they want to bring on the end of the world.
They seem, As far as I can tell, to co-exist with their friends and family who are jew hating right-wing American Christians
presumably because they think only right-wing american christians will be raptured up to heaven and the rebuilding of Solomons temple bizarrely
doesn't mean any jews are going with them .