Active shooter?

[L'Emmerdeur]

Why you ol' gun-grabber you.

That's an illustration of how sometimes you and others don't bother trying to understand what I say. I have never once objected to reasonable gun control measures, nor have I in any way accused anyone of being a "gun grabber" or the like. I have proposed reasonable options on other threads in the past, as well. It must be some underlying pigeon-holing of me into a category of person - this happens often. As soon as I espouse a view not in line with a particular person, I'm dropped in the "conservative" bucket (or the like "right wing" or whatever). No matter how many times I've demonstrated my views on a variety of issues to be markedly otherwise, that nevertheless continues.

The winking smiley denotes an attempt at humor, Forty Two. I think that it's indisputable that what you outlined would be viewed as a 'gun-grabbing' proposal by the people I described. I'm not pigeon-holing you here, and I'm well aware that your position in regard to gun control is nuanced and doesn't conform with the standard Republican/NRA position.

[Forty Two]

Why you ol' gun-grabber you.

That's an illustration of how sometimes you and others don't bother trying to understand what I say. I have never once objected to reasonable gun control measures, nor have I in any way accused anyone of being a "gun grabber" or the like. I have proposed reasonable options on other threads in the past, as well. It must be some underlying pigeon-holing of me into a category of person - this happens often. As soon as I espouse a view not in line with a particular person, I'm dropped in the "conservative" bucket (or the like "right wing" or whatever). No matter how many times I've demonstrated my views on a variety of issues to be markedly otherwise, that nevertheless continues.

The winking smiley denotes an attempt at humor, Forty Two. I think that it's indisputable that what you outlined would be viewed as a 'gun-grabbing' proposal by the people I described. I'm not pigeon-holing you here, and I'm well aware that your position in regard to gun control is nuanced and doesn't conform with the standard Republican/NRA position.

Indeed, but the only reason the joke works if you're talking to someone who is advancing an opinion on gun control that you don't expect from them. If your expectation of me was to post a pro-gun control post, the joke would make no sense. Anyway, no worries, but I'm also not a Republican, and not a member of the NRA (and never have been either).

[Forty Two]

Disagree on the rifle caliber, the most commonly used calibers in mass shootings are .223/5.56, .22LR, and 9mm. The AK caliber, 7.62mm, is an up and coming contender. In fact, the most deadly caliber, if you're talking about sheer number of dead per incident, is definitely .223/5.56, Breivik killed 69 people using a 5.56 Mini14. Hunting calibers are larger and more powerful, but have a higher utility IRL than .223, and are rarely used in "ordinary" mass shootings. They're more suited for sniper attacks like Charles Whitman. Plus, most hunting rifles have small magazines, generally 5-7 rounds, and are bolt action. No way the hunters are giving them up, nor should they.

I understand completely, but the stopping of the mass shootings doesn't come from the limitation of caliber. In the US, there may be more reason to allow higher calibers in rifles, because there is more bigger game in the US to hunt. I guess for like a wild hog or something you'd probably want more stopping power.

The stopping of the mass shootings can only come from (a) measures that keep nutballs from getting the guns, and (b) security measures to keep the nutballs and/or guns out of the schools. I think the lowering of the caliber is more of a feature of sensibility, where we limit the folks who just want to get a hard on from the most powerful and deadly gun they can get ahold of.

But, I am certainly not married to any particular regulation on caliber, and I think that the allowance of semiautos of the kind you've mentioned above, subject to licensure, registration, and notification of (all) transfers, as well as notification of all thefts/losses, would go a long way to reducing the mass shootings.

[JimC]

The only gun control proposal that can work to reduce the homicides per 100,000 rate in the US. Given the number of guns in the US, the rate of homicides per 100,000 of 4.2 is remarkably small. There are more guns in the US than people.

The only way to reduce that number, though, is to get rid of handguns. I'm sorry to say it gun-folks, but that's the reality. The vast majority of guns used in homicides are handguns. They are used in drug related offenses, robberies, gang activities, and the like. They are concealable, and they are small and easy to carry.

The long gun, really, is not the heart of the problem. The incident in Florida and other school shootings can be mostly eliminated with security measures at the schools. But they are the ones that are the most horrifying.

So, here is what the US has to do, IMO:

1. General prohibition on new handgun purchases, except under limited, tightly controlled circumstances;
2. Rifles limited in caliber up to a .22 and .223 or thereabouts. AR-15s and other semiautos still allowed in those calibers. Maybe blip higher. Regulation on ammo quantities too.
3. Licensing of all gun owners with strict background check, including current handgun owners who will lose their guns if they fail the background check.
4. Registration of each firearm, and an obligation to report when lost or stolen, or when any transfer of ownership occurs.

Well-regulated militia, still with the right to keep and bear arms (subject to said regulations).

I agree with #1
However, for #2, various forms of hunting demand higher calibre rifles, so why not allow them, but bolt-action only... In fact, I'd make semi-autos illegal in any calibre, as they are in Oz. Serious hunters use bolt action rifles...
All magazines limited to 10 rounds - that is ample for hunting. Semi-automatic rifles with magazines of a capacity of 30 or more are simply infantry weapons, with no purpose other than killing other humans.
Agree with #3 and #4

[Forty Two]

Well, I think you make a great point JimC, and I would modify the suggestion by making the caliber limitation for semiautomatics only. Bolt action, carbine action, break action, lever action, I'd say a higher caliber makes sense. That might satisfy Laklak's concern too.

Shotguns I guess you'd have to have a different rule. I'd like to have a semiautomatic shotgun for home defense. Some ne'er-do-well coming in with ill intent -- just point and shoot! LOL. I joke. I have never owned a gun. I don't want one in the house. I also don't live where there is anything much for me to fear. The critters are more of a danger. Cottonmouth Vipers, snapping turtles, alligators. That's my main home defense concern, lol.

[Forty Two]

One slight point of disagreement I think I have, though, JimC, is in the semiautomatic rifles with magazine capacity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the magazine campacity a separate thing from the gun? I mean, one rifle can accommodate a 10 round, or a 30 round, magazine or clip depending on the size the magazine, and it's not controlled by the gun itself, generally?

[JimC]

One slight point of disagreement I think I have, though, JimC, is in the semiautomatic rifles with magazine capacity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the magazine campacity a separate thing from the gun? I mean, one rifle can accommodate a 10 round, or a 30 round, magazine or clip depending on the size the magazine, and it's not controlled by the gun itself, generally?

In most cases, I think you are right. But if it were law that a new rifle only came with a 10 shot magazine, and that sales of higher capacity magazines were banned, then the death toll in mass shootings should be considerably reduced.

On the semi-auto thing, perhaps I might make an exception for low powered rifles such as a standard .22. I used to own a 10 shot semi-auto Ruger .22, and it was handy on my father-in-law's farm for shooting rabbits...

[Woodbutcher]

IIRC in Canada semi-auto shotguns were limited to a five-round magazine. Pump and lever-action rifles and shotguns have no limit, but some areas limit the number of shells in a magazine for hunting waterfowl to two.

[Tero]

Mass shooters will be forced to become serial killers!

[Tero]

Atheism and Islam causing mass shootings:

Most conservative media reject the idea that shootings like the one in Parkland are a gun issue. The real concern isn't that semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 are widely available and can be purchased for less than you would spend on a good bicycle. Instead, they argue that the real crisis involves a breakdown in the fabric of American society, disintegrating families, and a lack of Christian values.


https://www.npr.org/2018/02/19/58712167 ... l-shooting

[Seabass]

[Seabass]

[Brian Peacock]

The only gun control proposal that can work to reduce the homicides per 100,000 rate in the US. Given the number of guns in the US, the rate of homicides per 100,000 of 4.2 is remarkably small. There are more guns in the US than people.

The only way to reduce that number, though, is to get rid of handguns. I'm sorry to say it gun-folks, but that's the reality. The vast majority of guns used in homicides are handguns. They are used in drug related offenses, robberies, gang activities, and the like. They are concealable, and they are small and easy to carry.

The long gun, really, is not the heart of the problem. The incident in Florida and other school shootings can be mostly eliminated with security measures at the schools. But they are the ones that are the most horrifying.

So, here is what the US has to do, IMO:

1. General prohibition on new handgun purchases, except under limited, tightly controlled circumstances;
2. Rifles limited in caliber up to a .22 and .223 or thereabouts. AR-15s and other semiautos still allowed in those calibers. Maybe blip higher. Regulation on ammo quantities too.
3. Licensing of all gun owners with strict background check, including current handgun owners who will lose their guns if they fail the background check.
4. Registration of each firearm, and an obligation to report when lost or stolen, or when any transfer of ownership occurs.

Well-regulated militia, still with the right to keep and bear arms (subject to said regulations).

Not that I disagree but (!) making it (progressively?) more difficult to obtain, maintain, and load automatic and semiautomatic weapons would be a great first step imo. It might not hurt retailers or manufacturers much, but it would send a welcome signal about the reasonableness of placing some restrictions on ownership.

[Brian Peacock]

One slight point of disagreement I think I have, though, JimC, is in the semiautomatic rifles with magazine capacity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the magazine campacity a separate thing from the gun? I mean, one rifle can accommodate a 10 round, or a 30 round, magazine or clip depending on the size the magazine, and it's not controlled by the gun itself, generally?

In most cases, I think you are right. But if it were law that a new rifle only came with a 10 shot magazine, and that sales of higher capacity magazines were banned, then the death toll in mass shootings should be considerably reduced.

On the semi-auto thing, perhaps I might make an exception for low powered rifles such as a standard .22. I used to own a 10 shot semi-auto Ruger .22, and it was handy on my father-in-law's farm for shooting rabbits...

In the UK you have to show reasonable cause to own and use a shotgun or sim.. Agricultural use is a good reason to own one, to be kept in a locked cabinet bolted to a suitable wall, stored separately from the rounds, and subject to a yearly police inspection - who also have broad powers to revoke licences and confiscate weapons. Similar rules apply to private and commercial game and clay pigeon shooting.

[JimC]

A little less draconian here, and farmers can get permits for some guns the general populace can't, but handguns are simply not available, other than by serious criminals (not punk wannabes) or in pistol clubs, where they have to be kept under lock and key in the clubhouse. Generally, you have to have a shooter's licence, and register each of your guns (typically shotguns or bolt action rifles)