Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Seabass » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:37 pm

So Russia meddled with US elections. So what? Russia has always meddled with US elections and it never bothered the left until Trump. And besides, none of this is against the law. :ddpan:
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:53 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:00 am
NATO has no function which is also true of the UN. They are America's toys to cause tension and sell arms. Just look at the mess Africa is in. The UN 'peace' forces have only caused more problems with rape and pillage.
That reminds me: There never was a Korean war, nor was there a Vietnamese one after the US sent their troops in en masse. Officially, both were "UN police actions". So, yeah, nice tool.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:42 am

The Vietnam War was never declared a war. It was a "conflict" which Congress gave approval to the President to send in troops.
It had little to do with the UN.
I like this reply on Quora written by a Vietnam veteran:
There's a lot of answers here, most pointing out that, for those involved, it was a war for sure. The lack of a formal declaration is what gives rise to doubt. A formal declaration means that the American people have united and are committed to destroying some one they see as an enemy. That hasn't happened since WWII. Instead, various interest groups have used our armed forces to further their own political and economic interest, much like the southern planters did in the Civil War.

The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution is the "legal" document often referred to. The Pentagon Papers disclosed that it was a setup. The destroyers had been shelling the North Vietnamese coast. They weren't innocents subjected to an unprovoked attack on the high seas as the nation and congress were led to believe.

The lesson to be drawn from these events is that we're not in control of our government. The special interest, 1%'ers, whatever you call them, control and manipulate congress, the press, and the courts. Your teacher would soon be out of work saying something like this. The established way to skirt this ugly truth is to say it was a "conflict".
The actual reason was the American Generals wanted to play war games. WW1 was started for the same reason; bored generals.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:04 pm

The actual reason for US involvement in Vietnam, was the rise of the secret intelligence agencies in the US and US opposition to the Japanese in World War 2. Up until World War 2, the entire region was French Indochina, part of the French colonial empire. Other areas of southeast Asia were part of the British colonial empire, of course.

In 1945, the Japanese routed the French out of Tonkin, Annam, and Cochinchina (three sections of Vietnam), after the French refused to turn over the colonial government to the Japanese Empire. The Japanese ousted the French, and set up a puppet government under the Vietnamese Emperor.

So, there was initially authorization of some help to the French in Vietnam (air support) at that time, but Roosevelt ordered it discontinued -- he was against helping the French in southeast Asia. He wanted to oppose the Japanese, but wanted to do so while at the same time not helping the French colonial empire.

In early 1945, the United States OSS (precursor to the CIA) allied itself with Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh in 1945 (to help them fight off the Japanese) - US provided military assistance, and Ho agreed to rescue American soldiers and sabotage Japanese stuff.

When President Roosevelt died, and Truman took over, the US policy shifted to be more pro-French, and the US openly supported French sovereignty in Indochina, including Vietnam. As 1945 wore on, the OSS became more involved in Vietnam -- on the side of Ho Chi Minh - and the US was of the view that the Viet Minh weren't communist and were opposing harsh French colonial rule - and the US was helping the Viet Minh fight the Japanese.

Then Japan surrendered in early to mid-August, 1945, and that prompted the general uprising in Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh at the helm.

So, then an American intelligence officer (Archimedes Patti) went to Vietnam with a French team (their avowed purpose was to deal with American and French POWs to be released from Japanese captivity), but Ho was very suspicious of the French and told the Americans that the French purpose was to reestablish French hegemony. Patti recommended that the US not allow more French into the country, especially armed French.

After the Japanese signed the final surrender documents in September, Ho declared independence (actually referring to the US Declaration of Independence) and attempting to enlist the Allies to help Vietnam get out from under French oppression.

Problems started arising, of course, as the Chinese moved in to accept surrender of Japanese forces north of the 16th parallel, and they ran roughshod over the northern part of Vietnam, and the US policy was to stay out of the way and not become involved in French-China issues.

The Brits entered southern Vietnam to accept surrender of Japanese forces below the 16th parallel, and the policy of the colonial Brits was to help reestablish French colonial rule. The Brits released lots of French soldiers who had been taken prisoner, and the French rule in the south was reestablished. That spurred the general strike by the Viet Minh who then attacked French, Brit and Japanese in Vietnam.

Then the first US casualty in the Vietnam War happened in late 1945 - Colonel Peter Dewey (the son of the famous Presidential candidate who was mistakenly declared to have defeated President Truman - the famous "Dewey Wins!" headline). Dewey was there overseeing prisoner releases and surrenders - but he complained about British and French abuses/atrocities. The British general prohibited him from flying the US flag on his vehicle, and the Viet Minh mistook him for French. Before he died, Dewey wrote to US authorities that the French and Brits were going to be ousted, and that the US should just leave. He was quite prophetic.

Ho Chi Minh started talking to the US about how the French, Brits and Chinese were treating Vietnam like a conquered country. By late 1945, the colonial brits and the French had enlisted freed and surrendered Japanese soldiers to fight Viet Minh. So, right after the Japanese surrender in WW2, you had the Brits, French and some Japanese fighting against Ho's Viet Minh.

The Brits and the French solidified French rule in the south, and started shipping in more French troops to control south of the 16 parallel, with the Chinese controlling the north.

The US bailed out - with both the French/Brit colonial side, and the Viet Minh, upset that the US wasn't doing enough to help them.

After that, Ho Chi Minh send several communications to President Truman begging for help to secure Vietnamese independence. The US did not answer. Sadly.

By mid-1946, the Brits had withdrawn and the colonial French were back in control. Ho Chi Minh tried to do a deal with the French for Vietnamese sovereignty but as subject to the French empire. Remember his famous "I prefer to sniff French shit for 5 years, than to eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life." Ho tried to negotiate with the French, but the French insisted on maintaining colonial rule, and by the latter part of 1946, there was guerilla warfare against the French rule and there was civil war.

As the Cold War heated up, the US policy mistake - led by the "intelligence agencies" - was to support the French against the supposed communists - which Ho would gladly not have been, had Vietnam been allowed to be independent in the 1940s. So, starting in like 1950, we've got US aid going to prop up French colonialism in southeast Asia under the rubric of anti-communist efforts. It was the colonialist efforts of the Brits and the French, however, not recognizing independent Vietnam, that forced Ho and the Viet Minh into the arms of Soviet Russia and Maoist China.

US policy had turned from indifference to Vietnam, leaning towards helping them be independent and not helping the French -- to the policy of anti-communism and helping the French because it was seen as important to the US that the French not lose or withdraw. It didn't help that the Korean War began in 1950, where the communist/Stalinist Kim Il Sung invaded south Korea -- demonstrating the need to stop the spread of communism.

The French obviously finally lost their Vietnam War in 1954 and withdrew, and then the American involvement began - propping up a government in the south.

Lost opportunities to get out are tragic - we could have not gotten involved to prop up French colonials in the 40s. We could have refused to aid the French in the 1950s, and they would have withdrawn, and we would have extended friendship to the new Vietnamese country under Ho, and he hated the Chinese enough that he would have been glad to be allies with the US.

We could have let the French withdraw after Dien Bien Phu, but Eisenhower kept the status quo and cold war policy going. Kennedy took over in 1960 and Eisenhower warned Kennedy about involvement in Vietnam and Indochina in general, but Kennedy got wrapped up in cold war policy too - he was embarrassed by the Bay of Pigs and the Berlin Wall going up, and there were apparent defeats to communism all around. So, Kennedy made the fateful decision to draw the line in Vietnam -- to save US reputation and standing with its allies - and to stop the spread of communism and show we could defeat the Soviets and the Chi-Coms.

The intelligence community had risen to even greater power, and you have all the bullshit with the behind the scenes stuff like the Tonkin Bay Incident - the CIA led invasion of Cuba -- all these secret, unaccountable stuff -- US policy by intelligence agency. Then after Kennedy was assassinated, you have President Johnson take over with his big swinging dick, and he escalates in 1964 and we're stuck in the same mire that the French were stuck in.

All for nothing but to oppose the independence of the Vietnamese on the grounds of the spread of communism. But, that "spread" was created by the failure to recognize the need to end Indochina colonial rule by the French, and it forced the Viet Minh into enlisting help from the side that opposed the French, Brits and eventually the Americans. So sad.

Dewey had it right - the French were finished there - the US should have left. The aid we sent to French colonial oppressors could have been sent to the fledging Ho Chi Minh government, and he had given every indication that he would have followed in American footsteps for a country based on individual liberty and republican/democratic government. After the French defeat, though, it was too late and Ho was a communist, and too allied with communist Russia and China - but it was the west that forced him into it.

Roosevelt knew it. Truman knew, and he didn't want to help the French, but he let it happen based on intelligence and anti-Chinese/Soviet viewpoints. The US ignored Ho Chi Minh's declaration of independence and his pleas to ally with the US. Eisenhower knew it, but he took the easy way out and just let the status quo be as the US bathed in prosperity in the 1950s. And, Kennedy swooped in as the cold warrior who followed all the advice of the CIA and the experts fighting the cold war, and Johnson let himself get played with the Gulf of Tonkin, and we were in the shit.

A sad three decades of two indochina wars, and even after it ended the region suffered yet another indochina war, as the communist menace that indifference and expedience of policy helped to create ran roughshod over the people of indochina, including but not limited to Vietnam, and millions died.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Seabass » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:14 am



"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:18 am

How does Putin shield himself against believing the myth that is growing around him? That can't be easy.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:44 am

This proves that Cohen has turned to the dark side...

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:38 pm

Not enough humor in this thread. Here's a flippant paraphrasing of the public testimony of Peter Strzok before Congress:

'Peter Strzok Is A Fucking Badass. Let's Liveblog His All-Day Testimony!
10:59: Fucking Bob Goodlatte is ALREADY telling Strzok that if he refuses to answer questions THE FBI HAS INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER, that they will hold him in contempt of Congress and maybe he will even be subject to criminal penalties. It was a question from Gowdy, to be clear, about the beginning of the ONGOING TRUMP-RUSSIA INVESTIGATION.

These motherfuckers want to force a showdown in the first five goddamn minutes.

...

11:18: GOWDY: Shouldn't you have been kicked off the investigation when you WROTE the bad texts, not when they were discovered?

STRZOK: Uh no, you idiot.

GOWDY: I BEG YOUR GOSHDARN PARDON!

STRZOK: He kicked me off because of the appearance of bias, because MY PERSONAL FUCKING TEXTS were being made public. Not because my work was biased. Literally everybody has political opinions, you fucking dipshit.

GOWDY: I WILL KEEP MY THUMBS UP MY ASS AS MUCH AS I WANT, FBI BOY!

United States House of Representatives, everybody!

And now Strzok is noting that one of his mean texts about Trump was sent after Trump FUCKING ATTACKED A GOLD STAR FAMILY, WHICH WAS DISGUSTING, DO YOU REMEMBER HOW DISGUSTING THAT WAS, TREY GOWDY?

...

11:51: GOODLATTE: Do you understand why very stupid people like me don't understand how the FBI works?

STRZOK: I do, unfortunately.

GOODLATTE: What did you mean when you said you could "smell" Trump supporters?

STRZOK: LOLOLOLOL smells like butts.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Seabass » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:38 pm

I saw the Maddow episode to which the article refers. Interesting stuff. I'm sure it's all #FAKENEWS however, 'cause we can really only trust Gateway Pundit and Newsbusters.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:14 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:38 pm
Not enough humor in this thread. Here's a flippant paraphrasing of the public testimony of Peter Strzok before Congress:

'Peter Strzok Is A Fucking Badass. Let's Liveblog His All-Day Testimony!
10:59: Fucking Bob Goodlatte is ALREADY telling Strzok that if he refuses to answer questions THE FBI HAS INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER, that they will hold him in contempt of Congress and maybe he will even be subject to criminal penalties. It was a question from Gowdy, to be clear, about the beginning of the ONGOING TRUMP-RUSSIA INVESTIGATION.

These motherfuckers want to force a showdown in the first five goddamn minutes.

...

11:18: GOWDY: Shouldn't you have been kicked off the investigation when you WROTE the bad texts, not when they were discovered?

STRZOK: Uh no, you idiot.

GOWDY: I BEG YOUR GOSHDARN PARDON!

STRZOK: He kicked me off because of the appearance of bias, because MY PERSONAL FUCKING TEXTS were being made public. Not because my work was biased. Literally everybody has political opinions, you fucking dipshit.

GOWDY: I WILL KEEP MY THUMBS UP MY ASS AS MUCH AS I WANT, FBI BOY!

United States House of Representatives, everybody!

And now Strzok is noting that one of his mean texts about Trump was sent after Trump FUCKING ATTACKED A GOLD STAR FAMILY, WHICH WAS DISGUSTING, DO YOU REMEMBER HOW DISGUSTING THAT WAS, TREY GOWDY?

...

11:51: GOODLATTE: Do you understand why very stupid people like me don't understand how the FBI works?

STRZOK: I do, unfortunately.

GOODLATTE: What did you mean when you said you could "smell" Trump supporters?

STRZOK: LOLOLOLOL smells like butts.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:24 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:18 am
How does Putin shield himself against believing the myth that is growing around him? That can't be easy.
He is imperturbable, floating above it all on a mountain of rubles.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Jason » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:39 pm

Putin - A traditional Russian Daddy.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Seabass » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:42 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:24 pm
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
Image
You knew what was here, but you couldn't resist, could you? Nobody can.
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
Image
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Jason » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:47 pm

Trigger Warning!!!1! :
Image

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:35 am

mmmh is the tie between the two that strong?
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