Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:01 pm

Tero wrote:How is that if my politician wants to raise taxes and I vote for him? Bill Gates votes for Democrats that tax him more.
Your lack of understanding of the loophole ridden tax system that doesn't ultimately tax Bill Gates the same way it taxes the ordinary income earner.
Tero wrote: I’m voting selfishly because I expect to get my money back later as benefits?
You're making the mistake of thinking you're somehow better than people who support policies and politicians that you oppose. You refuse to allow that they may also want what's best for the country, but that they have a different view of (a) what makes a good or better society, and/or (b) the means for getting there.

Discussion of the merits of policy positions become impossible when one or the other, or both, sides simply attacks the motives of the opposing side(s).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Rum » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:10 pm

And yet countries with the highest taxation do. if you take a look, also happen to have some of the happiest populations. Correlation may not be causation but there is clearly a connection.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou ... world.html

http://www.forastateofhappiness.com/doe ... countries/

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 pm

This is very true:
Again, the data suggest there is a correlation. Radcliff even states that “higher levels of taxation suggest higher levels of satisfaction with life”.
I would also add that the willingness to pay taxes also gives satisfaction with life. The fact that can contribute to society is very satisfying.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:33 pm

Rum wrote:And yet countries with the highest taxation do. if you take a look, also happen to have some of the happiest populations. Correlation may not be causation but there is clearly a connection.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou ... world.html

http://www.forastateofhappiness.com/doe ... countries/
It all depends on how "happiness" is defined. But those countries you're referring to, I'll say again, as I have many times on this board, sometimes referred to as "the rest of the world" are about 7 small, western European countries and Canada/Oz/NZ -- out of about 192 countries in the world, all with tax systems all over the map, some with very high taxation, too. There is no causative factor, as the variables effecting how people live in the Netherlands or Luxemburg are completely different than in many other countries.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm

Tero wrote:Troll interviewed:
In a new interview with the Washington Post, former troll Marat Mindiyarov described the factory as Orwellian, complete with an “assembly line” of lies.

“Your first feeling, when you ended up there, was that you were in some kind of factory that turned lying, telling untruths, into an industrial assembly line,” Mindiyarov said. “The volumes were colossal — there were huge numbers of people, 300 to 400, and they were all writing absolute untruths.”

https://www.recode.net/2018/2/18/170252 ... ry-clinton

While much of Mueller’s focus is on Russian intervention in the U.S. election using platforms like Facebook and Twitter, Mindiyarov’s primary role was to comment on the news in Russia on forums such as LiveJournal and Russian news sites.
What conduct constitutes the crime here?

If a Mexican starts a facebook page to influence public opinion in the US to be more in favor of Mexico, and to support a particular candidate, have they committed a crime?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:45 pm

Robert Mueller’s Russian Troll Indictment states that the Russians organized pro-Trump and anti-Trump rallies, mostly pro-Trump. What is obvious upon reading about the rallies, is the document is very misleading. The truth is the pro-Trump rallies were unsuccessful and the entire Russian scheme was a failure. Almost no one attended the pro-Trump rallies. In the case of most, the rallies likely weren’t even held. On the other hand, in the case of a New York City anti-Trump rally, 10,000 showed up. The indictment states that in order to build attendance for the rallies, they promoted them on their accounts and notified large groups. The fact is, the “sophisticated scheme” succeeded in only one rally, an anti-Trump rally.

On page 24. The indictment reads. “Destruction of Evidence”; 58. In order to avoid detection and impede investigation by U.S. authorities of Defendants’ operations. Defendants and their co-conspirators deleted and destroyed data, including emails. :thinks:

According to the indictment, the Russians staged an anti-Trump demonstration on Nov. 12, 2016, to inflame racial tensions after the election. Attended by 10,000, the rally went from Union Square to Trump Tower. It was promoted by the Facebook page BlackMattersUS, created by the Russians. “Join us in the streets! Stop Trump and his bigoted agenda!” read a Facebook Events page for the rally.

If the mods will allow, I'm going to start another thread and go through the indictment allegation by allegation. Should be pretty damning, no?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:49 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Rum wrote:And yet countries with the highest taxation do. if you take a look, also happen to have some of the happiest populations. Correlation may not be causation but there is clearly a connection.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou ... world.html

http://www.forastateofhappiness.com/doe ... countries/
It all depends on how "happiness" is defined. But those countries you're referring to, I'll say again, as I have many times on this board, sometimes referred to as "the rest of the world" are about 7 small, western European countries and Canada/Oz/NZ -- out of about 192 countries in the world, all with tax systems all over the map, some with very high taxation, too. There is no causative factor, as the variables effecting how people live in the Netherlands or Luxemburg are completely different than in many other countries.
I think it mostly depends on what that tax revenue is spent on. If a country has high taxes to fund never ending war then it's people are likely to be less happy than a country with high taxes that spends the money on social services, say.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 pm

good point.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:51 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tero wrote: I’m voting selfishly because I expect to get my money back later as benefits?
You're making the mistake of thinking you're somehow better than people who support policies and politicians that you oppose. You refuse to allow that they may also want what's best for the country, but that they have a different view of (a) what makes a good or better society, and/or (b) the means for getting there.

Discussion of the merits of policy positions become impossible when one or the other, or both, sides simply attacks the motives of the opposing side(s).
So why are you attacking Tero's motives here - for voting for higher taxes to recoup certain social benefits or goods?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:07 pm

I didn't say that. I did not attack his motives, nor did I suggest he would vote in order to recoup benefits.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:43 pm

Forty Two wrote:"You're making the mistake of thinking you're somehow better than people who support policies and politicians that you oppose. You refuse to allow that they may also want what's best for the country."
... sounds like attacking someone's motives while ignore the point you were supposedly responding to: that Tero would vote for policies that might accrue or recoup certain social benefits or goods. The argument it there to be made for taxation policy - so now you've let us know that Tero is just wrong for supporting broadly socially progressive political policies perhaps you'll turn to the issue of why the redistribution of tax revenues to, say, fund school or health service improvements is a mistake that's not in the best interests of the country.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:01 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Forty Two wrote:"You're making the mistake of thinking you're somehow better than people who support policies and politicians that you oppose. You refuse to allow that they may also want what's best for the country."
... sounds like attacking someone's motives while ignore the point you were supposedly responding to: that Tero would vote for policies that might accrue or recoup certain social benefits or goods.
That's a question he posed. I did not respond to it because I don't know one way or the other why he would vote, nor have I attacked his motive. I was responding only to the idea of attacking motives, which applies equally to Tero as it does to evangelicals. I am happy to assume Tero has a sincere desire to see society improve for the better, based on his idea of what "better" is and based on the means he thinks is appropriate.
Brian Peacock wrote: The argument it there to be made for taxation policy - so now you've let us know that Tero is just wrong for supporting broadly socially progressive political policies perhaps you'll turn to the issue of why the redistribution of tax revenues to, say, fund school or health service improvements is a mistake that's not in the best interests of the country.
Oh, I think much of what he's advanced on these boards is wrong, but I don't believe he actively wants to make things worse (by his definition).

The redistribution of tax revenues was not the issue I was responding to. However, I do not oppose taxation to fund schools and other government services. There are always trade-offs as to how much and in what way to fund different government tasks, and also which government is to be responsible for doing it. And, how government funds should be used is subject to a variety of theoretical and practical considerations. https://fee.org/articles/milton-friedma ... t-schools/

Does Milton Friedman have an evil motive, to hurt society and make it worse? Or, is he advancing a theory and policy that he thinks will make things better? Can he be wrong, and also think that his policy would make him better? Does his argument have any worth or any value in understanding?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:06 pm

So what you're saying is that there's good people on both sides?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:09 pm

--at some point you cross a line though, eh? I think they've crossed it. Maybe if they can manage to throw off the evangelicals, then whatever is left, may have a place here.

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:14 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:So what you're saying is that there's good people on both sides?
I'm saying that most people think that they support what will be best for the country, society, etc., under their presumptions and assumptions. So, attacking someone's motive to suggest that the intent is to do "evil" is unproductive in either (a) understanding what they are saying, and (b) convincing anyone of anything.

People change opinions on important issues all the time. You may also do that. I would think if you think hard, you can find a very important issue that you once held an opposite view on. At least, that's rather normal for people, over time, to modify their views, and hold one view in their 20s, another in their 30s, etc.

If your opposition is "evil" how can that be done, even in the face of a persuasive argument? If a person has a position on distribution of revenue relative to schools based on several assumptions or presuppositions, and then later those assumptions or presuppositions are challenged persuasively, if only the evil people don't agree with your first position, how can you possibly change your mind?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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