Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:49 am

O'oh....

Fake news, of course. No witness to any events was referred to by name in that report, therefore #FAKENEWS!
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm

Well, actually, I would say that there wasn't even in a description of questionable activity in the article, and it sounds like rumor and innuendo. A 20-year business associate of many people who did business in eastern Europe is thought by some to have a "better than average" chance of being "connected" (very broad term) to Russian intelligence.

Even if he was, do we have any explanation of "so what?" What's the improper conduct? By whom?

What does this have to do with Trump? Manafort was involved in deals in eastern Europe long before the 2016 campaign? O.k. Add to Manafort's charges. Indict whoever was involved.

Fake news? Who knows? First, we ought to be told what the "news" is, don't you think?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Joe » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am

Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Well, actually, I would say that there wasn't even in a description of questionable activity in the article, and it sounds like rumor and innuendo.
You can say it, but Kilimnik was indicted for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He also claimed to have orchestrated the gutting of a proposal to arm Ukraine in its war against Russian proxies. Pretty explicitly questionable activity, and based on investigation and his own statements, not "rumor and innuendo" as you assert.
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
A 20-year business associate of many people who did business in eastern Europe is thought by some to have a "better than average" chance of being "connected" (very broad term) to Russian intelligence.
Mueller cited FBI special agents, and described Kilimnik's ties to Russian intelligence as “active” through the 2016 presidential election. Plus, he attended a language school run by Soviet military intelligence, the GRU. Once again, these are specific ties found by investigation and the man's own statements, not vague gossip as you state.
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Even if he was, do we have any explanation of "so what?" What's the improper conduct? By whom?
Once again obstruction of justice and witness tampering, allegedly committed between February and April of this year, are crimes. If this guy was working on behalf of Russian intelligence in the Trump campaign, that's espionage, which is a crime as well. That's what. :bored:
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
What does this have to do with Trump? Manafort was involved in deals in eastern Europe long before the 2016 campaign? O.k. Add to Manafort's charges. Indict whoever was involved.
This has already been explained to you Forty Two. This is a counterintelligence investigation in part. Any foreign influence on people near the President is a threat to our national security, and Mueller is duty bound to investigate. Not everybody is as fixated on Trump as you appear to be.
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Fake news? Who knows? First, we ought to be told what the "news" is, don't you think?
I guess you didn't read the article carefully enough Forty Two, or you wouldn't need to be told what the news is. :prof:
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:18 am

The only news that registers for him is Fox News and other right wing sources, apparently.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm

Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Well, actually, I would say that there wasn't even in a description of questionable activity in the article, and it sounds like rumor and innuendo.
You can say it, but Kilimnik was indicted for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He also claimed to have orchestrated the gutting of a proposal to arm Ukraine in its war against Russian proxies. Pretty explicitly questionable activity, and based on investigation and his own statements, not "rumor and innuendo" as you assert.
The story doesn't mention "obstruction," except to mention that Mueller indicted him for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. The article does not use the words obstruction of justice or witness tampering in the article, and the article does not describe what he did to obstruct or tamper. If you look at what they said Manafort did to "tamper" with witnesses, you'll see how amazingly thin the allegations can be.

Opposing the arming of Ukraine is no more "questionable" behavior than opposing arming Russia or anyone else. Since when is political policy a matter of criminal law? What crime did he commit in "gutting" the arm Ukraine proposal?
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
A 20-year business associate of many people who did business in eastern Europe is thought by some to have a "better than average" chance of being "connected" (very broad term) to Russian intelligence.
Mueller cited FBI special agents, and described Kilimnik's ties to Russian intelligence as “active” through the 2016 presidential election. Plus, he attended a language school run by Soviet military intelligence, the GRU. Once again, these are specific ties found by investigation and the man's own statements, not vague gossip as you state.
The article provides zero detail on this. Yes, Mueller indicted, but what exactly did Kilimnik do? The legal charge is not the statement of the underlying facts. Having "ties" tells us nothing. I read the article, and the article tells us nothing that is questionable. Change all the names to another language - absent the "Russians are coming!" narrative out of it - and you get people doing business, and pushing political positions - based on what the article says, that is.
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Even if he was, do we have any explanation of "so what?" What's the improper conduct? By whom?
Once again obstruction of justice and witness tampering, allegedly committed between February and April of this year, are crimes. If this guy was working on behalf of Russian intelligence in the Trump campaign, that's espionage, which is a crime as well. That's what. :bored:
Obstruction of justice and witness tampering come after the fact. What underlying crime did he obstruct an investigation of? What did he do to "tamper" with witnesses? If you look at the allegations against Manafort, a brief phone call where he doesn't say anything false or incorrect and doesn't try to modify any witness' testimony is still lofted as evidence of tampering.

There was no mention of him working "in the Trump campaign" at all. This is all before the campaign began. Mueller says his "connections" to Russian intelligence were "active" through 2016, but there is no mention in the article that he was involved in the Trump campaign at all, was there?
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
What does this have to do with Trump? Manafort was involved in deals in eastern Europe long before the 2016 campaign? O.k. Add to Manafort's charges. Indict whoever was involved.
This has already been explained to you Forty Two. This is a counterintelligence investigation in part. Any foreign influence on people near the President is a threat to our national security, and Mueller is duty bound to investigate. Not everybody is as fixated on Trump as you appear to be.
This issue of counterintelligence vs. criminal investigation is not as clear as you lay out. The Mueller mandate is based on Part 600 regulations, which apply only to criminal investigations. An appointment for a counterintelligence special counsel would be under 510. Rosenstein drafted the appointment very vague, alluding to Comey's testimony before congress, wherein Comey refers to "part of the FBI's counterintelligence function..." and so the mandate is very broadly written.

I'm not fixated on Trump, but this thread is about Trump.

But, my point there was that this says nothing about Trump or the Trump campaign, and it appears that you are in agreement with that. Sure, if a Russian agent was "in the Trump campaign" or coordinating with the Trump camp to do dastardly deeds, then there would be an issue, but nothing in the article even hints that that is the case.

Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Fake news? Who knows? First, we ought to be told what the "news" is, don't you think?
I guess you didn't read the article carefully enough Forty Two, or you wouldn't need to be told what the news is. :prof:
Even after your post, you've not suggested what the "news" is. Kilmninko was indicted by Mueller for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. That we knew, but what does it have to do with Trump or collusion or anything? The primary mandate of Mueller is to investigate coordination/ties between the Russian Government and persons associated with the Trump campaign.

Was Kilmninko tied to the Trump campaign? How? Because he knew Manafort? Because they engaged in business and political activities long before the campaign? The closest the article gets is the blurb that Kilmninko's "ties" to "Russian intelligence" were "active" until 2016. So, what? What does that even mean? You know how small a contact there needs to be for the FBI to characterize it as a "tie?" And, what was Kilmninko's involvement with a "person associated with the Trump campaign" during the campaign?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Mueller's investigation isn't about 'collusion' btw.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Svartalf » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:30 pm

what's it about then? surely, it's not ONLY about the Russians stacking the odds in favor of the orange babboon, but also about said baboon and associates of his having been an integral party to the project of which he benefited, otherwise, this would be a purely CIA matter, not FBI.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:17 pm

Mueller was appointed by the DOJ with a mandate to examine the scope and extent of Russian interference in the 2016 US general election. This included integrating the ongoing FBI investigations into Manafort and Flynn initiated before the election, along with "any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation". This is primarily an investigation into the security and operation of US democratic processes that will report it's findings directly to the DOJ. It has no power to indict the President or hold him to account in law but, in theory, the report could lead to a Congressional impeachment proceeding. We should not forget that Mueller was appointed with the powers of an independent counsel only after Trump sacked Comey over 'this Russia-Trump thing,' when the former FBI director refused to offer a pledge of personal loyalty to the President and subsequently reported that Trump had asked him to drop the Flynn investigation.

That Mueller is looking to prove 'collusion' between the Trump campaign and the Russian government is a red herring and a gross, and in many cases wilful, reification of the investigation's terms of operation.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:24 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:17 pm
Mueller's investigation isn't about 'collusion' btw.
"ties and/or coordination" is specifically mentioned in the Mandate. And Rosenstein specifically authorized Mueller to investigate "collusion." https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/p ... id=a_mcntx
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:30 pm
what's it about then? surely, it's not ONLY about the Russians stacking the odds in favor of the orange babboon, but also about said baboon and associates of his having been an integral party to the project of which he benefited, otherwise, this would be a purely CIA matter, not FBI.
It's absolutely not a purely intelligence investigation. Part 600 is the criminal investigation bit of the CFR and Mueller was appointed to investigate crime. It is not a crime merely for Russia to favor a candidate , to post internet ads, or organize rallies. If nobody in the Trump camp was knowingly involved AND committed an act that is against the law, then there really is nothing about it.

Does anyone really think this is the first time the Russians or some other country had a preferred outcome in a foreign election and tried to produce propaganda to get the result they like? That's what most of this is. The only real crime alleged relative to the campaign MIGHT be a hack of the DNC and Hillary servers, however, it's not been proven that there was a "hack" (as opposed to a leak) and it has not been proven (or even alleged, really) that anyone in the Trump campaig was involved in any such hack, if it even occurred.

As you may recall, the issue of hacking made up about 2 paragraphs in that December intelligence memo that the intelligence community claimed Russia was interfering in the election - almost the entirety of the memo was related to known activities of Russia in posting advertisements and spreading disinformation - both for and against Trump and for and against Hillary - to foment discord.

Mueller has indicted some Russians, who were not expected to actually appear in court, and as soon some surfaced, appearing in court unexpectedly, Mueller moved the court for a delay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... 326fa7bade and https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... troll-case

So, there's Mueller, indicting someone and then saying that the prosecution doesn't want to disclose the evidence against the Defendant. And, it has nothing to do with Trump.

So, a Russian defendant shows up in court and suddenly Mueller is not ready to litigate, and doesn't want to disclose his evidence. https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... lay-570627 (Mueller engaging in "pettifoggery" lol)
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:55 pm

A load of bollocks once again.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:00 pm

From you, yes. Nothing I wrote was inaccurate.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:41 pm

And they say wit is dead :D
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by Joe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Well, actually, I would say that there wasn't even in a description of questionable activity in the article, and it sounds like rumor and innuendo.
You can say it, but Kilimnik was indicted for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He also claimed to have orchestrated the gutting of a proposal to arm Ukraine in its war against Russian proxies. Pretty explicitly questionable activity, and based on investigation and his own statements, not "rumor and innuendo" as you assert.
The story doesn't mention "obstruction," except to mention that Mueller indicted him for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. The article does not use the words obstruction of justice or witness tampering in the article, and the article does not describe what he did to obstruct or tamper. If you look at what they said Manafort did to "tamper" with witnesses, you'll see how amazingly thin the allegations can be.

Opposing the arming of Ukraine is no more "questionable" behavior than opposing arming Russia or anyone else. Since when is political policy a matter of criminal law? What crime did he commit in "gutting" the arm Ukraine proposal?
Well, You certainly won't find the words "obstruction of justice" or "witness tampering" in the article if you use the search function, but you will find
Special Counsel Robert Mueller filed obstruction-of-justice charges against Konstantin Kilimnik and Paul Manafort two days after the publication of this story.
and
When Manafort allegedly hatched a ploy to tamper with witnesses this past February, Kilimnik seems to have served as his loyal co-conspirator.
if you had actually read it. :funny:
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
A 20-year business associate of many people who did business in eastern Europe is thought by some to have a "better than average" chance of being "connected" (very broad term) to Russian intelligence.
Mueller cited FBI special agents, and described Kilimnik's ties to Russian intelligence as “active” through the 2016 presidential election. Plus, he attended a language school run by Soviet military intelligence, the GRU. Once again, these are specific ties found by investigation and the man's own statements, not vague gossip as you state.
The article provides zero detail on this. Yes, Mueller indicted, but what exactly did Kilimnik do? The legal charge is not the statement of the underlying facts. Having "ties" tells us nothing. I read the article, and the article tells us nothing that is questionable. Change all the names to another language - absent the "Russians are coming!" narrative out of it - and you get people doing business, and pushing political positions - based on what the article says, that is.
Do you need a wahmbulance? I'm sorry Mueller and the FBI won't tell all for your benefit, but that doesn't change the facts that refute your assertion. I'm sure you can selectively remove enough of the article to make it say anything you want, but it's still quote mining and bullshit.
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Even if he was, do we have any explanation of "so what?" What's the improper conduct? By whom?
Once again obstruction of justice and witness tampering, allegedly committed between February and April of this year, are crimes. If this guy was working on behalf of Russian intelligence in the Trump campaign, that's espionage, which is a crime as well. That's what. :bored:
Obstruction of justice and witness tampering come after the fact. What underlying crime did he obstruct an investigation of? What did he do to "tamper" with witnesses? If you look at the allegations against Manafort, a brief phone call where he doesn't say anything false or incorrect and doesn't try to modify any witness' testimony is still lofted as evidence of tampering.

There was no mention of him working "in the Trump campaign" at all. This is all before the campaign began. Mueller says his "connections" to Russian intelligence were "active" through 2016, but there is no mention in the article that he was involved in the Trump campaign at all, was there?
Well Forty Two, here's a pro-tip. You know those bits of text in the article that your cursor changes when you mouse over them? Click them and you learn stuff.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities have expressed interest in the activities of a Kiev-based operative with suspected ties to Russian intelligence who consulted regularly with Paul Manafort last year while Manafort was running Donald Trump’s presidential campaign.
And then there's the whole arming Ukraine GOP plank thing I mentioned earlier.
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
What does this have to do with Trump? Manafort was involved in deals in eastern Europe long before the 2016 campaign? O.k. Add to Manafort's charges. Indict whoever was involved.
This has already been explained to you Forty Two. This is a counterintelligence investigation in part. Any foreign influence on people near the President is a threat to our national security, and Mueller is duty bound to investigate. Not everybody is as fixated on Trump as you appear to be.
This issue of counterintelligence vs. criminal investigation is not as clear as you lay out. The Mueller mandate is based on Part 600 regulations, which apply only to criminal investigations. An appointment for a counterintelligence special counsel would be under 510. Rosenstein drafted the appointment very vague, alluding to Comey's testimony before congress, wherein Comey refers to "part of the FBI's counterintelligence function..." and so the mandate is very broadly written.
Wherein Forty Two gets busted for quote mining.
I have been authorized by the Department of Justice to confirm that the FBI, as part of our counterintelligence mission, is investigating the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election and that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and Russia's efforts. As with any counterintelligence investigation, this will also include an assessment of whether any crimes were committed.

Nothing vague about that. :hehe:
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
I'm not fixated on Trump, but this thread is about Trump.
So the guy who posts lengthy defenses of Trump in the Make Fun of Trump thread isn't fixated on the guy. Tell me another one. :biggrin:
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
But, my point there was that this says nothing about Trump or the Trump campaign, and it appears that you are in agreement with that. Sure, if a Russian agent was "in the Trump campaign" or coordinating with the Trump camp to do dastardly deeds, then there would be an issue, but nothing in the article even hints that that is the case.
Well, other than the the whole "Mueller cited FBI special agents, and described Kilimnik's ties to Russian intelligence as “active” through the 2016 presidential election" thing. I guess that's not a strong enough hint for you. :tut:
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Fake news? Who knows? First, we ought to be told what the "news" is, don't you think?
I guess you didn't read the article carefully enough Forty Two, or you wouldn't need to be told what the news is. :prof:
Even after your post, you've not suggested what the "news" is. Kilmninko was indicted by Mueller for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. That we knew, but what does it have to do with Trump or collusion or anything? The primary mandate of Mueller is to investigate coordination/ties between the Russian Government and persons associated with the Trump campaign.
Still fixated on your boy. :bored:
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Was Kilmninko tied to the Trump campaign? How? Because he knew Manafort? Because they engaged in business and political activities long before the campaign? The closest the article gets is the blurb that Kilmninko's "ties" to "Russian intelligence" were "active" until 2016. So, what? What does that even mean? You know how small a contact there needs to be for the FBI to characterize it as a "tie?" And, what was Kilmninko's involvement with a "person associated with the Trump campaign" during the campaign?
Stay tuned. That's what we have Mr. Mueller for.

In the meantime, work on your writing. This was a piss poor effort.
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Re: Trump and Russia; Spasiba, Harasho!

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:19 am

Joe wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Joe wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:38 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
Well, actually, I would say that there wasn't even in a description of questionable activity in the article, and it sounds like rumor and innuendo.
You can say it, but Kilimnik was indicted for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He also claimed to have orchestrated the gutting of a proposal to arm Ukraine in its war against Russian proxies. Pretty explicitly questionable activity, and based on investigation and his own statements, not "rumor and innuendo" as you assert.
The story doesn't mention "obstruction," except to mention that Mueller indicted him for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. The article does not use the words obstruction of justice or witness tampering in the article, and the article does not describe what he did to obstruct or tamper. If you look at what they said Manafort did to "tamper" with witnesses, you'll see how amazingly thin the allegations can be.

Opposing the arming of Ukraine is no more "questionable" behavior than opposing arming Russia or anyone else. Since when is political policy a matter of criminal law? What crime did he commit in "gutting" the arm Ukraine proposal?
Well, You certainly won't find the words "obstruction of justice" or "witness tampering" in the article if you use the search function, but you will find
Special Counsel Robert Mueller filed obstruction-of-justice charges against Konstantin Kilimnik and Paul Manafort two days after the publication of this story.
and
When Manafort allegedly hatched a ploy to tamper with witnesses this past February, Kilimnik seems to have served as his loyal co-conspirator.
if you had actually read it. :funny:
God, he's just getting more and more fucking ridiculous as the years go by. I'm glad everyone* is finally starting to see what I've seen for years.

*I don't include you in that, as you've only been here for less than a year.
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