"Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Animavore » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:21 am

JimC wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:25 am
a love for a strong leader, with a tendency to have romantic illusions about the Third Reich...
So why do they have a love for the weak coward in the White House?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:28 am

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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:31 am

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:29 am
OK, but I'll just assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right.
Or you could do the absolute minimum of work and type altright.com into your browser and see that there are plenty of them that self-identify.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:44 am

Maybe he requires another diagram?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:29 am
OK, but I'll just assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right.

It isn't a very meaningful definition. For example - I hereby accuse everyone of being alt-right.

Now it's even less useful.

How about a really simple question.

Is Jordan Peterson alt-right?
Why play ignorant and "assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right"? While you might think some people or groups are erroneously dragged onto that label you surely cannot be unaware of what the term 'alt-right' means, signifies, or represents, even when it's misapplied? Surely?

Why are you so reluctant to engage here? If you're challenging a definition of 'alt-right' then what is it? If you challenging the application of a definition then what is the correct definition and how is it being misapplied?

I don't know if Jordan Peterson is 'alt-right' in his views or if he personally aligns himself with those groups -- I kind of doubt that his views or political aims sufficiently coincide, he prefers to plough a lonely furrow -- but in his efforts to disavow left-leaning viewpoints of any and all kinds he has certainly become a bit of a darling of the movement. How would you characterise Jordan Peterson's political position, and what the fuck does that have to do with anything (other than trying to shift the discussion onto fresh ground, again)?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:40 pm

So it is something you use as an accusation, not as a useful label.

JimC, you are obviously alt-right.

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Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am
Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:29 am
OK, but I'll just assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right.

It isn't a very meaningful definition. For example - I hereby accuse everyone of being alt-right.

Now it's even less useful.

How about a really simple question.

Is Jordan Peterson alt-right?
Why play ignorant and "assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right"? While you might think some people or groups are erroneously dragged onto that label you surely cannot be unaware of what the term 'alt-right' means, signifies, or represents, even when it's misapplied? Surely?
Surely you can answer simply, whether you can name alt-right people? Allow them to answer your charge?

Or is it just a convenient 'them' which is less useful to you if examined?

Why are you so reluctant to engage here? If you're challenging a definition of 'alt-right' then what is it? If you challenging the application of a definition then what is the correct definition and how is it being misapplied?
If you would gird up your courage and answer, I could say. If you refuse to be specific, then fine, the alt right are ignorant. But remember, I accuse you along with anyone else you accuse of being alt right.

I don't know if Jordan Peterson is 'alt-right' in his views or if he personally aligns himself with those groups -- I kind of doubt that his views or political aims sufficiently coincide, he prefers to plough a lonely furrow -- but in his efforts to disavow left-leaning viewpoints of any and all kinds he has certainly become a bit of a darling of the movement. How would you characterise Jordan Peterson's political position, and what the fuck does that have to do with anything (other than trying to shift the discussion onto fresh ground, again)?
I don't know his political leanings, but he has made me think differently about the lefties I love (and love to mock)

One example he offers is how terrible the left are at being critical of extremists. We see plenty of 'too far' on the right, and identify it fairly easily. Not so easy on the left.

I have heard him accused of being alt right, so I went and listened. He doesn't identify that way.

If you accuse someone else, I might like their stuff too. They also might be alt right, or they might, like Peterson, be victim of a label they wouldn't choose for themselves.

I've enjoyed the HELL out of several vloggers who have been accused of being altright. So far, I haven't encountered any who identify that way, publicly. Lots of accusers, though. It's almost like it's a way of saying someone is bad, while being vague enough to not be held to account for a false accusation.
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:36 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:40 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am
Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:29 am
OK, but I'll just assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right.

It isn't a very meaningful definition. For example - I hereby accuse everyone of being alt-right.

Now it's even less useful.

How about a really simple question.

Is Jordan Peterson alt-right?
Why play ignorant and "assume 'alt-right' means anyone accused of being alt-right"? While you might think some people or groups are erroneously dragged onto that label you surely cannot be unaware of what the term 'alt-right' means, signifies, or represents, even when it's misapplied? Surely?
Surely you can answer simply, whether you can name alt-right people? Allow them to answer your charge?
Oo look, you're ignoring the question and changing the game again. How novel.
Or is it just a convenient 'them' which is less useful to you if examined?

Why are you so reluctant to engage here? If you're challenging a definition of 'alt-right' then what is it? If you challenging the application of a definition then what is the correct definition and how is it being misapplied?
If you would gird up your courage and answer, I could say. If you refuse to be specific, then fine, the alt right are ignorant. But remember, I accuse you along with anyone else you accuse of being alt right.
I answered the question in the post I quoted. You can accuse me of anything you like darling, but it won't change the fact that you'll render the term meaningless by accusing me of being alt-right - whcih I kind of guess is the point eh?

I don't know if Jordan Peterson is 'alt-right' in his views or if he personally aligns himself with those groups -- I kind of doubt that his views or political aims sufficiently coincide, he prefers to plough a lonely furrow -- but in his efforts to disavow left-leaning viewpoints of any and all kinds he has certainly become a bit of a darling of the movement. How would you characterise Jordan Peterson's political position, and what the fuck does that have to do with anything (other than trying to shift the discussion onto fresh ground, again)?
I don't know his political leanings, but he has made me think differently about the lefties I love (and love to mock)

One example he offers is how terrible the left are at being critical of extremists. We see plenty of 'too far' on the right, and identify it fairly easily. Not so easy on the left.

I have heard him accused of being alt right, so I went and listened. He doesn't identify that way.

If you accuse someone else, I might like their stuff too. They also might be alt right, or they might, like Peterson, be victim of a label they wouldn't choose for themselves.

I've enjoyed the HELL out of several vloggers who have been accused of being altright. So far, I haven't encountered any who identify that way, publicly. Lots of accusers, though. It's almost like it's a way of saying someone is bad, while being vague enough to not be held to account for a false accusation.
OK, so if the left won't criticise extremists, and that's somewhat of a bigly vague IF there, and btw neither will the President of the USA, that hardly has a bearing on the discussion - unless you're looking to start fresh one, again? Why is Jordan Peterson 'a victim' of the label which many of his acolytes willing place themselves and him under? That seems to suggest that you know what the alt-right is, well at least enough to know that JP isn't one of them, which in turn also suggests you know a bit more about his politics than you're letting on.

What you really want here is for someone to give you a definition of 'alt-right' so that you can disagree with it, don't you? Perhaps you think that if you can invalidate anyone's description of the alt-right then you can more easily turn to criticising its critics and be the champion of a truth which, ironically, you won't even acknowledge in response to a straight quesiton. Have you got a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' kind of thing going on here?
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:35 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:36 pm
OK, so if the left won't criticise extremists, and that's somewhat of a bigly vague IF there, and btw neither will the President of the USA, that hardly has a bearing on the discussion - unless you're looking to start fresh one, again?
I was just pointing out one of the interesting things he said. I think it's true.

When does the left go too far? It is an important question, so why is it so hard to criticism them publicly.

I think the wage gap is one example of them going too far. It is clearly misrepresenting the actual case, and most everyone I know understands that.

So why is it so contraversial to say that there is a lot more nuance than the claim accounts for?
Why is Jordan Peterson 'a victim' of the label which many of his acolytes willing place themselves and him under?
He says he is not alt-right. Is that not good enough to stop with the labelling? Or would you like to continue to insist he is not what he claims to be?

That seems to suggest that you know what the alt-right is, well at least enough to know that JP isn't one of them, which in turn also suggests you know a bit more about his politics than you're letting on.
I know a bit about his thoughts because I have listened to him, not just to his detractors. He accounts himself well in public speaking. He recently did a debate (wasn't really a debate) along with Stephen Fry, defending the position that political correctness was not good. (approximately)

Their opponents were shit. The conversation stayed firmly away from political correctness.

What you really want here is for someone to give you a definition of 'alt-right' so that you can disagree with it, don't you?
I point out again and again that, like 'racist' or 'islamophobe' or such, these labels do little to convey information.

Except as indication that the accuser is using ad-hom attacks. It does show that pretty clearly. Especially when you try to hold someone down to a clear definition.

Perhaps you think that if you can invalidate anyone's description of the alt-right then you can more easily turn to criticising its critics and be the champion of a truth which, ironically, you won't even acknowledge in response to a straight quesiton. Have you got a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' kind of thing going on here?
No, I think Jordan Peterson is very different from me (he is a religious sort) and you. I think also that he is smart, right about a lot of shit, and NOT the kind of monster most paint him as.

Same for Milo Yiannopolous. He may indeed be a beast, but most of the accusations against him are easily dismissed as bullshit.

If you can label anyone altright or racist or islamophobe, how would they exonerate themselves, in your eyes? Is there an act someone can make which would make you reconsider that kind of accusation? Or is it nice and vague so you never have to risk being wrong?
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Joe wrote:
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Re:

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm

Peterson operates a level of reification which renders most of what he says immune to rational consideration. Now, if we can turn back to the alt-right, do you think there's good folks on both sides?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re:

Post by Cunt » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm
Peterson operates a level of reification which renders most of what he say immune to rational consideration. Now, if we can turn back to the alt-right, do you think there's good folks on both sides?
Since no-one wants to provide an example to look at, I can't say anything.

Do you think you could use a real example, such as a youtuber you claim is alt-right, and who has a clear position on some issue?
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:42 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:40 pm
So it is something you use as an accusation, not as a useful label.
Why can't it be both? :ask:
JimC, you are obviously alt-right.

White
Male
Angry
etc
No he's not. Nice quotemine. :roll:
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Cunt » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:45 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:42 pm
Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:40 pm
So it is something you use as an accusation, not as a useful label.
Why can't it be both? :ask:
JimC, you are obviously alt-right.

White
Male
Angry
etc
No he's not. Nice quotemine. :roll:
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

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Re: Re:

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm
Peterson operates a level of reification which renders most of what he say immune to rational consideration. Now, if we can turn back to the alt-right, do you think there's good folks on both sides?
Since no-one wants to provide an example to look at, I can't say anything.

Do you think you could use a real example, such as a youtuber you claim is alt-right, and who has a clear position on some issue?
Well, it seems your raising the spectre of Jordan Peterson as a member of the alt-right was a red herring after all, so how about Richard Spencer instead?

:whisper: You can look him up on Wikipedia
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:35 pm
Why is Jordan Peterson 'a victim' of the label which many of his acolytes willing place themselves and him under?
He says he is not alt-right. Is that not good enough to stop with the labelling? Or would you like to continue to insist he is not what he claims to be?
A lot of murderers don't admit to being murderers. A lot of racists don't admit to being racists. Your point is invalid.
If you can label anyone altright or racist or islamophobe, how would they exonerate themselves, in your eyes? Is there an act someone can make which would make you reconsider that kind of accusation? Or is it nice and vague so you never have to risk being wrong?
That some people get mislabeled isn't an argument against labelling. It's just an argument for more critical analysis.
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Re: Re:

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:57 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm
Peterson operates a level of reification which renders most of what he say immune to rational consideration. Now, if we can turn back to the alt-right, do you think there's good folks on both sides?
Since no-one wants to provide an example to look at, I can't say anything.
Bullshit. I gave you a link - altright.com
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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