Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:45 pm

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:41 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:33 pm
...a free market when profits are guarenteed, but a market that must be bailed out when they aren't.
That's been a key strategy in the corporate playbook for some time. The big end of town uses its immense political clout via its immense wealth to maintain a political environment tailored to their needs.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:10 am

Indeed. And the action and influence of those financial interests tell the lie of free market economics.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:37 am

Capitalism has always been a lie. That is how it exists.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:31 am

JimC wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:41 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:33 pm
...a free market when profits are guarenteed, but a market that must be bailed out when they aren't.
That's been a key strategy in the corporate playbook for some time. The big end of town uses its immense political clout via its immense wealth to maintain a political environment tailored to their needs.
We don't have a Free Market. The system is Monopoly Capitalism, or Corporatism. Here the market is perverted to limit competition by creating barriers to entry.

A small company could technically build a plant to produce some thing like chloroquine in a matter of weeks, but would not be allowed to do so. Not because they would be unable meet the safety and quality standards, but because the paperwork and permissions would take months and probably be refused. All this at the expense of the small enterprise. The Corporate with its army of lawyers and lobbyist don't have this hurdle.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:07 am

That's the logical outcome of freer market capitalism. Money gravitates to the top, and with that comes power over the system.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:28 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:37 am
Capitalism has always been a lie. That is how it exists.
and yet I believe adam smith did believe in the gunk he spouted out.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:34 am

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:28 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:37 am
Capitalism has always been a lie. That is how it exists.
and yet I believe adam smith did believe in the gunk he spouted out.
The lie is in that Capitalism is a Free Market. Capitalists try to gain a Monopolist Market share that prevents the entry of new players that can compete with them. If any new players do well they are forced out by price wars, and forced out of business or into mergers. The idea of Capitalist Competition in a Free Market is a myth.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:00 am

Of course there's competition. The outcome of that is that the bigger player usually prevails. Are you implying that if only markets were free that everything would be hunky dory? I hope not, because cronyism and corporatism are the inevitable outcome of free(r) market capitalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:03 am

rainbow wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:34 am
Svartalf wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:28 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:37 am
Capitalism has always been a lie. That is how it exists.
and yet I believe adam smith did believe in the gunk he spouted out.
The lie is in that Capitalism is a Free Market. Capitalists try to gain a Monopolist Market share that prevents the entry of new players that can compete with them. If any new players do well they are forced out by price wars, and forced out of business or into mergers. The idea of Capitalist Competition in a Free Market is a myth.
I agree very much. In true capitalism only one corporate structure would survive having a total monopoly of everything in society.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:10 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:00 am
Of course there's competition. The outcome of that is that the bigger player usually prevails. Are you implying that if only markets were free that everything would be hunky dory?
No. I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm stating that the Free Market within Capitalism is a myth.

I don't know what would be hunky dory. Perhaps a system of smaller companies and co-ops that are not allowed to become too powerful and anti-competitive?
Government and private enterprise can combine to create JV with economies of scale where required. Workers can hold shares and board positions to prevent the worst of abuses. These have all been used with success (and some spectacular failures).
Essential services can be controlled by government, or partially owned by the community.

You may think of other examples.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:26 pm

You are describing the Dutch society. We have in every company over 500 employees a board of governors that are appointed by the board of directors and govern what the directors do and have the power to sack them which happens more than you may think. We have for every company with more than 100 employees work councils made up of directors reps, if applicable governors reps and workers reps elected by the workers. Any agreements have to made with total agreement and not by majority. These can be working conditions (laid down by the employment laws) or salaries of the workers and directors. Their decision is final and cannot be ignored.
All our essential services are privately owned but subject to strict government inspectorates.
Salary agreements are sector wide agreements (CAO; Centraal Arbeids Overeenkomst) and form the basis of all wage negotiations in every company. It is the minimum the company has to pay. The CAO are polder agreements negotiated by the workers, trade unions and employers under the guidance of government's body the SER (Stichting Economisch Raad) .

It has worked well and a similar system is used in other Northern European Countries.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:04 pm

Sorry, I just can't resist...

Dutch capitalism is the best capitalism! :biggrin:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:13 pm

Sure, remember how they behaved in the Dutch Indies...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:15 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:13 pm
Sure, remember how they behaved in the Dutch Indies...
There is the French talking. :smug: :{D :bored: :ab:
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