Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:41 am

Hehe. Yeah, the Dutch might not have had counts, dukes, or earls etc but the main features of an aristocracy are royal patronage and heredity, of which we are told the NL had none - in which case they had only one feudal lord, the king.

I'm still confused as to why a pretty incontrovertible statement about European economies historically transitioning from feudal to capital models from the 1600s has been disputed, as well as being taken as an attack on the NL, but there you go.

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:47 am

JimC wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:35 am
The nanobots probably made you type that...
No. Jab #1 installs the bots. Jab #2 activates them. Expect a change in what I post starting on the 1st of September.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:53 am

This society historically never had an aristocracy. When land was reclaimed it became the property of the gemeente (community). The dykes were kept up by waterschappen (water companies) and became very powerful. They charged taxes and still do for the maintenance of the dykes, sluices etc. I pay €350 a year to keep dry. Dams were owned by other companies and charged for their use. So came to exist the simple capitalist model which incorporated a very socialist side. The were special arrangements for people who were unable to pay the taxes. People were not exploited. They paid in kind.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:03 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:41 am
Hehe. Yeah, the Dutch might not have had counts, dukes, or earls etc but the main features of an aristocracy are royal patronage and heredity, of which we are told the NL had none - in which case they had only one feudal lord, the king.

I'm still confused as to why a pretty incontrovertible statement about European economies historically transitioning from feudal to capital models from the 1600s has been disputed, as well as being taken as an attack on the NL, but there you go.
For a feudal system you need a royal court with knights etc. There was no feudal system here as in the UK and France. We had upstarts that liked to give themselves titles but the Stadhouder soon quashed their little dream. By the time William I became king as such he never had a court and the country was run by merchants with the trumped up aristocracy was frowned upon. We still have a few jonkheers lurking around whose ancestry is at least to say dubious.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:10 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:41 am
Hehe. Yeah, the Dutch might not have had counts, dukes, or earls etc but the main features of an aristocracy are royal patronage and heredity, of which we are told the NL had none - in which case they had only one feudal lord, the king.

I'm still confused as to why a pretty incontrovertible statement about European economies historically transitioning from feudal to capital models from the 1600s has been disputed, as well as being taken as an attack on the NL, but there you go.
For a feudal system you need a royal court with knights etc. There was no feudal system here as in the UK and France. We had upstarts that liked to give themselves titles but the Stadhouder soon quashed their little dream. By the time William I became king as such he never had a court and the country was run by merchants with the trumped up aristocracy was frowned upon. We still have a few jonkheers lurking around whose ancestry is at least to say dubious.
Nope. Feudalism does not require monarchies. Simple warlords will do, whether you call them kings, or chiefs, or something else.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:18 am

Well we never had them. The feudal system required unflinching devotion from those in it. Not very Dutch I am afraid.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:04 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:18 am
Well we never had them. The feudal system required unflinching devotion from those in it. Not very Dutch I am afraid.
Nope. Feudalism does not require unflinching devotion to monarchies. Simple warlords with the ability to enforce their will is enough. Again, I'd encourage to expand your thinking to a time before the formation of the modern state of the Netherlands, and to question narratives which claim a default historical virtue for one state over all others.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:24 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:18 am
The feudal system required unflinching devotion from those in it.
Unflinching devotion? Tell the barons who dictated the Magna Carta. Or the aristocrats of the Fronde who led a five year long war against Louis XIV. Or the German Kurfürsten, who from 1125 until the abolition of the Holy Roman Empire in August 1806 decided who their next emperor was to be.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:31 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:03 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:41 am
Hehe. Yeah, the Dutch might not have had counts, dukes, or earls etc but the main features of an aristocracy are royal patronage and heredity, of which we are told the NL had none - in which case they had only one feudal lord, the king.

I'm still confused as to why a pretty incontrovertible statement about European economies historically transitioning from feudal to capital models from the 1600s has been disputed, as well as being taken as an attack on the NL, but there you go.
For a feudal system you need a royal court with knights etc. There was no feudal system here as in the UK and France. We had upstarts that liked to give themselves titles but the Stadhouder soon quashed their little dream. By the time William I became king as such he never had a court and the country was run by merchants with the trumped up aristocracy was frowned upon. We still have a few jonkheers lurking around whose ancestry is at least to say dubious.
If that's correct, can you explain me what caused trouble between the French Kings and the Flemings in the late 1200s and early 1300s until the 100 year war gave the French more important stuff to think of than asserting their legitimate power over unruly burghers?
Or How the Dutch provinces came to be Possession of the Habsburgs?
or for that matter what class the Princes of Orange came from if not the old Feudal aristocracy? We're talking a guy with enough blue blood to have marriage ties with the Stuarts and to be offered a certain throne if he would just help getting its legitimate tenant's arse out of it?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:44 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:18 am
Well we never had them. The feudal system required unflinching devotion from those in it. Not very Dutch I am afraid.
Thus spoken by somebody who has obviously never seriously studied history.
France had a feudal system for about 1200 years, and I can tell you that the system never inspired much devotion from anybody. The landed gentry wanted to get bigger, the bigger nobles wanted that too, and increased revenue and duties from their vassal, and more autonomy from the Crown, and the King wanted to be master of all the house rather than letting various people each doing what they wanted with their own room.
and of course, while the nobility plotted to tax them dry, the commoners just wanted to be rid of them and keep the money.
I don't know if england had any feudal traits before william the bastard took over, but it was the same as in France, except that william had set things up as more royal centric that they were in France, so the nobility were much more likely to get into conflict with the Crown, and things did not improve when the magna carta devolved various powers to parliament, and when wealthy commoners started to have a voice there.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:01 am

Svarty we never had that. There was no feudal system. Our first king was William I and he was not a king in the English or French definition. He was originally Stadhouder of Holland. We did not have vast landowners. 40% of the country was underwater or marshland. When it was reclaimed it belonged to the community. People could buy the leasehold so as to build anything. Your lack of knowledge of Dutch history is comparable to that mine of French history.
My original knowledge of history was restricted to Scottish history. I later on in secondary school studied modern history.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:50 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:01 am
Svarty we never had that. There was no feudal system. Our first king was William I and he was not a king in the English or French definition.
He was a de facto king and the Dutch republics were de facto feudal societies. I explained it here. You must have missed it. Otherwise you would not be repeating your bullshit.
Hermit wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:29 am
After the Dutch got rid of the Spanish Habsburgs they formed republics of sorts, but not democracies as we understand democracy today. Also, the Stadhouders', while theoretically subordinate to the states, wielded near-supreme power, especially in 1619–50, 1672–1702, and 1747–95. They were de facto monarchs. After the election of Prince William IV to all of the stadtholderates in 1747, the offices were made hereditary, so any pretence of not being a monarchy was academic. The Dutch were only governed without a Stadhouder between 1650–72 and 1702–47. William V, prince of Orange and Nassau and general hereditary stadtholder of the Dutch Republic from 1751 until 1795. For much of the period since the Habsburgs were thrown out, the members of the basically self-electing Dutch parliaments were hardly distinguishable from the nobility in the UK.

Then there was William V's eldest son, who reigned as William I, King of the Netherlands, from 1815 to 1840. Formally, the Netherlands have remained a kingdom ever since, although, like the monarchs in the UK, the Dutch Kings and Queens have increasingly become ceremonial figureheads.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:45 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:01 am
Svarty we never had that. There was no feudal system. Our first king was William I and he was not a king in the English or French definition. He was originally Stadhouder of Holland. We did not have vast landowners. 40% of the country was underwater or marshland. When it was reclaimed it belonged to the community. People could buy the leasehold so as to build anything. Your lack of knowledge of Dutch history is comparable to that mine of French history.
My original knowledge of history was restricted to Scottish history. I later on in secondary school studied modern history.
I don't know where to check for places like Holland and Zeeland, but I can warrant you that Flanders at least was a classic feudal earldom, similarly, Edward III married a daughter of... and I have no reason to believe the Netherlands totally escaped the feudal form of governance, they were part of the Carolingian empire after all. And Edward III married a daughter of the Count of Hainault... and at the time, what is now Belgium was part of the Flemish/Frisian area.

Also, the office of Stadhouder was created to be a form of stewardship when the provinces' feudal lords were away... particularly in the late middle ages/early modern times when the provinces were under Burgundian or Habsburg sway, and so had come under feudal rulership of a distant lord.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:28 pm

If the apparently non-feudal Netherlands never transitioned from a feudal model to capitalism, from what did it transition? Are we to take it that the Dutch were always Capitalists all the way back to the stone age?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:04 pm

It were the tulips what done it...
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