Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

[Forty Two]

Fuck Milton sideways sunshine.

LOL - that's because you know what you're talking about. I don't. Uncle Milton doesn't. But, Scot Dutchy does. That's evident from your incisive and poignant posts, well supported and well-argued.

Social democracy is not an economic system. It's neither socialism nor capitalism. Free market capitalism exists in social democracy. You said it yourself, Dutchy.

[pErvinalia]

Where are the 10 year olds working in factories today? Capitalist countries, or socialist ones?

Keep in mind that capitalism has no problem with kids working in factories. That's exactly what happens now, just in another country. Capitalism is global now. Kids working in Nike factories in Indonesia were doing it because of capitalism, not socialism.

[Forty Two]

Forty Two wrote:

The capitalist countries in the world are generally the ones with lower levels of inequality, including the US. US inequality is high compared to a bunch of small, western European countries.

The reason for "capitalist countries in the world are generally the ones with lower levels of inequality" is more to do with the higher degree of technology and organised government in western democracies rather than capitalist vs non-capitalist. You can make a good argument that the US is a "hyper-capitalist" society, at least in comparison to the social democracies of western Europe, with government programs are designed to mitigate the effects of capitalism, particular its tendency to create and maintain very large income gaps when under-regulated; that is the reason behind your admission in the second of your sentences...

Uncle Milton addresses the higher technology, etc. ,which you point out --



"A society that puts equality—in the sense of equality of outcome—ahead of
freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom.… On the other hand,
a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both
greater freedom and greater equality." - Uncle Milton.

[pErvinalia]

Fuck Milton sideways sunshine.

LOL - that's because you know what you're talking about. I don't. Uncle Milton doesn't. But, Scot Dutchy does. That's evident from your incisive and poignant posts, well supported and well-argued.

Social democracy is not an economic system. It's neither socialism nor capitalism. Free market capitalism exists in social democracy. You said it yourself, Dutchy.

It doesn't, and he's wrong. Social democracies implement a "mixed system". I.e a mix of capitalism and socialism.

[Animavore]

The capitalists fought against the abolition of child labour in the West. It was socialists who pushed towards abolition. LMAO.

[pErvinalia]

Forty Two wrote:

The capitalist countries in the world are generally the ones with lower levels of inequality, including the US. US inequality is high compared to a bunch of small, western European countries.

The reason for "capitalist countries in the world are generally the ones with lower levels of inequality" is more to do with the higher degree of technology and organised government in western democracies rather than capitalist vs non-capitalist. You can make a good argument that the US is a "hyper-capitalist" society, at least in comparison to the social democracies of western Europe, with government programs are designed to mitigate the effects of capitalism, particular its tendency to create and maintain very large income gaps when under-regulated; that is the reason behind your admission in the second of your sentences...

Uncle Milton addresses the higher technology, etc. ,which you point out --



"A society that puts equality—in the sense of equality of outcome—ahead of
freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom.… On the other hand,
a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both
greater freedom and greater equality." - Uncle Milton.

Uncle Milton is demonstrably wrong (as well as engaging in the conservative's favourite logical fallacy - the false dichotomy) . The less regulated capitalism is the greater the inequality gap. That's why inequality is signicantly lower in a lot of the OECD compared to the US.

[Scot Dutchy]

Inequality in America is of third world proportions. We have never had that sort of levels here. Today the gap is really at its greatest but that was more result of the crisis. It is now being corrected but we have to wait for our new government.

[Forty Two]

Inequality in America is of third world proportions.

That's just absolutely ridiculous. Moreover, it's been demonstrated here time and time again that being "poor" in the US is much better than being poor in Europe. However, none of that matters, because Europe is generally capitalist.

We have never had that sort of levels here. Today the gap is really at its greatest but that was more result of the crisis. It is now being corrected but we have to wait for our new government.

The prosperity of western European countries is as a result of capitalism. The rising prosperity of eastern european, formerly second world countries, is as a result of free markets.

[Scot Dutchy]

Prosperity of a minority is the result of capitalism and not for the majority.

[Brian Peacock]

But it's not capitalism either, by the same measure. It's a mix. I.e social democracy has been the greatest lifterer out of poverty.

Lifteriser?

[Brian Peacock]

As I said, Uncle Milton's thesis was explanatory not structural.

[pErvinalia]

But it's not capitalism either, by the same measure. It's a mix. I.e social democracy has been the greatest lifterer out of poverty.

Lifteriser?

Liftermeister

[Hermit]

I don't see where I said anything about "pure laissez faire" and neither did Uncle Milton, who explains throughout any of his writings and available videos that there is a role for government.

Milton Friedman very much argues for pure laissez faire capitalism throughout the excerpts you linked to. For instance, he sees no value at all in government policies to alleviate poverty: "If you look at the real problems of poverty and denial of freedom to people in this country almost every single one of them is the result of government action and would be eliminated if you eliminated the bad government failures." (@1:56 in the second link). He goes on to oppose government regulation of (minimum wages) and government run education. Though he does not say anything about the health sector in the clips you provided, I expect he opposes provision of medical services and insurance by governments too. What functions does Friedman approve of other than national defence and enforcement of criminal law? Looks like he very much favours pure laissez faire capitalism, and to the extent you agree with his ideology, so do you.

...free market capitalism within social democracy as the way to go, which, of course, is not socialism.

Capitalism in social democracies is not nearly as "free market" as Friedman and you would like. Capitalism in social democracies is nothing like the type of capitalism either of you advocate. Stop talking to us as if we were opposed to capitalism. Apart from sandinista and redunderthebed, neither of whom have posted here for years, none of us are. Most of us just subscribe to a different form of capitalism to yours.

[pErvinalia]

We're all secret Marxists. Just ask Seth.

[JimC]

We're all secret Marxists. Just ask Seth.

And he better not investigate himself too closely, or he could discover his inner Marxist!