Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:36 pm

Specially when he finds out Jack has been chasing his missus up and down the hills while he's out at work.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:56 pm

Capitalism is not a solution. It's a "not my problem" thing.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm

Nothing wrong with capitalism
...it's only destructive when those owners and directors choose to be predatory
and governments choose not to pursue tax dodgers or in the worst case are enablers of the predation.
Works pretty well in Norway and Finland.... :coffee:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:28 pm

macdoc wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm
Nothing wrong with capitalism
...it's only destructive when those owners and directors choose to be predatory
and governments choose not to pursue tax dodgers or in the worst case are enablers of the predation.
Works pretty well in Norway and Finland.... :coffee:
Choosing to be predatory is pretty much the default option for most large corporations, they can afford all the tax lawyers they want and governments around the world are susceptible to the pressure that extreme wealth can create. Right now, capitalism is not being effectively restrained in the majority of places it operates, particularly when the reach of corporations is global, and the powers of nation states are localised.

Sure, a handful of northern European states do a reasonable job in this area, and I fully recognise that capitalism brings a dynamism and innovative flair that is hard to get in other systems.

BTW, you forgot to say that it works pretty well in the Netherlands... :tea:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by rainbow » Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:28 pm

Capitalism is an anathema to the Free market
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:05 pm

Tero wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:56 pm
Capitalism is not a solution. It's a "not my problem" thing.680F5004-90AA-4AD4-85D4-38F44FDA4B06.png
I don't get it, how is it not your problem when due to insufficient pay, your workers' performance may be less than it could because they are distracted by real life problems, or working on them during work hours, or said workers are not loyal to you and likable to leave you at the drop of a hat, or maybe act in ways detrimental to your company, because they have direct material interest to do so?

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Tero » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:19 am

The guy owns the biggest holding company in the world. It's up to the businesses he owns to figure it out.
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Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by macdoc » Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:42 am

Or the goverment to compel the businesses by way of labour and tax policy.

In Australia we have a policy that requires any business of any size that employs people to deduct from their pay 5-8% of their wages toward a super-annuation fund that travels with the person for their working career.
In addition the employer must add I think 9% on top of the employee contribution.
( Australians please feel free to correct the %s.0

That's policy that blunts the ability of corporation or other predatory organizations to exploit workers.
Tied up with a high minimum wage. $20.33 per hour it allows even the more menial job workers to earn a living wage and put aside aside a good chunk for retirement as my partner did.

Superannuation follows a worker through out their working career and even after to the point where partner is adding to it even post retirement taking a temp hospitality job at $28 an hour ( and more for holiday pay ).

Australians don't as a rule tip which prevents abuses in hospitality industry. People know their server is well compensated and only exceptional service might warrant a tip where elsewhere it might mean the difference in feeding the kids that night ....and is often added....up to 20% on a bill even if the service is shite. Some employers abuse that as well not paying the tips through to the server. In Cuba tips ( lifesavers) were pooled for all hotel staff so even the invisible work staff benefitted.
It is not a method of compensating workers tho....for Cuba was a vital source of tourist dollars.

Even agricultural work here is well paid
The average agriculture salary in Australia is $93,250 per year or $47.82 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $79,500 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $141,231 per year.
even backpackers who are on a working holiday are well compensated.
The average backpacker salary in Australia is $57,200 per year or $29.33 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $42,656 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $92,430 per year
The total fund is over $3 trillion and cannot be accessed by gov wonks or by corporations as too often happens.

So the responsibility is shared .......so a mid frontline medical worker can come out with a $600k fund after 30 years to help retirement....and if the situation warrants it then also a modest pension is available.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:26 am

Cool. But even with govt schemes and protections c.1.2 million Australian children are still growing up in poverty. Is this a failure of capitalism or of government?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:59 am

The two aren't necessarily separate.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:56 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:59 am
The two aren't necessarily separate.
True, especially when governments are subservient to capitalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:25 am

An excellent article from the ABC which analyses how some of the consequences of the pandemic demonstrate serious fault lines within the capitalist system:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-17/ ... /100756832
At its heart, economics is fundamentally the social science of distribution — who gets what.

And, right now, the pandemic has thrown a spanner into the works: no-one, or at least, very few people, are able to get everything they want or, in many cases, even need.

Fresh food shelves have been stripped bare in thousands of stores around the country, rapid antigen tests can't be found for love nor money and even the ubiquitous painkiller paracetamol is in short supply.

In some cases, this is due mainly to extraordinary demand, both genuine need and panic-induced, but in others, it's a lack of supply.

While these supply chain disruptions are temporary, they have exposed a greater truth about some of the key failings of orthodox economics and the policies and practices based on it, as have other events in the pandemic.

Which workers are really essential?

Who do we miss most when they don't turn up to work?

If I couldn't work from home and write this column, would it inconvenience you in the slightest?

If your employer's CEO was out of action for a fortnight, would it affect your work?

Federal parliament hasn't sat for a month and a half and won't sit again until the second week of February. How many of us even noticed?

On the other hand, if your garbage collection doesn't turn up this week and your bin is overflowing, it'll certainly catch your attention.

When you turn up to the supermarket to buy fresh produce for dinner and the shelves are bare, it's more than a minor annoyance.

If your toddler can't go to childcare, you'll definitely notice.

As the Centre for Future Work's Jim Stanford pointed out last week, COVID has shown again and again that the basis of a healthy economy is healthy humans.

But it has also reminded those of us paying attention that our most essential workers also happen to be some of our lowest-paid, while our (arguably) less-essential workers are often paid far more.

Of course, in a modern capitalist democracy, we need CEOs, politicians and, yes, even journalists. But their temporary absence doesn't spark a crisis.

But take the nurses, chefs and cleaners out of a nursing home and you'll have a crisis very quickly, as some facilities are already seeing in the Omicron wave.

Yet the fruit and veggie pickers, abattoir workers, truck drivers, warehouse workers, nurses, childcare workers, garbage collectors, cleaners and many others whose daily work is directly essential for others' wellbeing generally earn much less than the average — which is currently around $90,000 per year for full-time workers.

Does that not hint at something fundamentally wrong with a social science concerned with distribution?

That many of the people whose work is most valued by others in society are among those least valued by that society in a monetary sense?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:57 am

:tup:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:42 am

JimC wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:25 am
An excellent article from the ABC which analyses how some of the consequences of the pandemic demonstrate serious fault lines within the capitalist system:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-17/ ... /100756832
At its heart, economics is fundamentally the social science of distribution — who gets what.

And, right now, the pandemic has thrown a spanner into the works: no-one, or at least, very few people, are able to get everything they want or, in many cases, even need.

Fresh food shelves have been stripped bare in thousands of stores around the country, rapid antigen tests can't be found for love nor money and even the ubiquitous painkiller paracetamol is in short supply.

In some cases, this is due mainly to extraordinary demand, both genuine need and panic-induced, but in others, it's a lack of supply.

While these supply chain disruptions are temporary, they have exposed a greater truth about some of the key failings of orthodox economics and the policies and practices based on it, as have other events in the pandemic.

Which workers are really essential?

Who do we miss most when they don't turn up to work?

If I couldn't work from home and write this column, would it inconvenience you in the slightest?

If your employer's CEO was out of action for a fortnight, would it affect your work?

Federal parliament hasn't sat for a month and a half and won't sit again until the second week of February. How many of us even noticed?

On the other hand, if your garbage collection doesn't turn up this week and your bin is overflowing, it'll certainly catch your attention.

When you turn up to the supermarket to buy fresh produce for dinner and the shelves are bare, it's more than a minor annoyance.

If your toddler can't go to childcare, you'll definitely notice.

As the Centre for Future Work's Jim Stanford pointed out last week, COVID has shown again and again that the basis of a healthy economy is healthy humans.

But it has also reminded those of us paying attention that our most essential workers also happen to be some of our lowest-paid, while our (arguably) less-essential workers are often paid far more.

Of course, in a modern capitalist democracy, we need CEOs, politicians and, yes, even journalists. But their temporary absence doesn't spark a crisis.

But take the nurses, chefs and cleaners out of a nursing home and you'll have a crisis very quickly, as some facilities are already seeing in the Omicron wave.

Yet the fruit and veggie pickers, abattoir workers, truck drivers, warehouse workers, nurses, childcare workers, garbage collectors, cleaners and many others whose daily work is directly essential for others' wellbeing generally earn much less than the average — which is currently around $90,000 per year for full-time workers.

Does that not hint at something fundamentally wrong with a social science concerned with distribution?

That many of the people whose work is most valued by others in society are among those least valued by that society in a monetary sense?
Excellent article indeed. At this point I am curious about how Coito/42 would explain to us where the author went so spectacularly wrong, and which Milton Friedman video clip he'd present to support his explanation. I have no curiosity whatsoever concerning what rant Seth might vomit out by way of response.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:58 am

Heh, whatever else might be said of Number, he could do a fair tap-dance when the spirit was in him. :lol:

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