Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:42 pm

Forty Two wrote:Supply-side economics corrects a fundamental mistake in Keynesian economics. Most everyone has heard of supply and demand, but Keynesian economics, known as demand management, left out supply. Keynesian high tax rates did not control inflation. Instead, high tax rates contributed to inflation.

The Keynesian policy caused “stagflation” and worsening “Phillips curve” tradeoffs between employment and inflation, because high marginal tax rates caused a reduction in labor input and a reduction in the rate of saving and investment. What was happening was that people and companies were responding to higher demand by raising their prices instead of their output.

Supply side economics was a correction of an oversight, not a magical formula. Before the days of the high speed Internet and US offshore outsourcing, supply-side economics revitalized the economy’s ability to grow without having to pay the price of rising rates of inflation. Stagflation and worsening trade-offs between inflation and employment resulted from an incorrect economic policy mix that pumped up demand with easy money while restraining real output with high tax rates.
Supply-side economics corrected that mistake.
Trickle-down economics may have had its upside when all boats were rising, albeit at different rates. For the past three decades or so, all increases in wealth has accrued to the haves. In terms of buying power the workers and even much of the middle classes are no better off today than they were in the 1980s. Bill Clinton contributed to this situation, Obama did not succeed in doing much about it and Hillary Clinton was perceived to be in the pockets of the Wall Street banks. Both parties were on the nose. This is why so many voters rejected the preferred political candidates of both the Democratic and the Republican Party and chose the populist arse-clown instead.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:08 pm

Hermit wrote:

The days of unions having the employers over a barrel, to the extent that this situation even existed, are well and truly gone. Now the best case scenario is picking applicants off one by one. "Take it or leave it."
Although there is some truth in that, it is not universal, and there are many industries and professions in Oz where concerted pressure from unions will achieve better outcomes for workers than if there was no organised labour at all...
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:00 am

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Poverty exists in all systems as yet designed or tried by mankind. The free market system, however, has been the best remedy to lift the most people up and out of poverty.
You keep forgetting or ignoring the fact that almost the entire world's nations are operated under a free market system in one form or another, so you need to be more granular when speaking of the effect of the free market on poverty in order to make a meaningful statement. Which free market system are you speaking of? The type that is practised in, say, Somalia, the USA, or Finland?
As I (and others) said earlier, it's likely more to do with systems of government than capitalism vs socialism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:36 am

JimC wrote:
Hermit wrote:

The days of unions having the employers over a barrel, to the extent that this situation even existed, are well and truly gone. Now the best case scenario is picking applicants off one by one. "Take it or leave it."
Although there is some truth in that, it is not universal, and there are many industries and professions in Oz where concerted pressure from unions will achieve better outcomes for workers than if there was no organised labour at all...
Maybe in Oz but here agreements are made at sector level not company. These means central discussions between workers reps, companies and government just like a workers council but at a higher level. The workers reps can be both union and no union. There are no closed shops here.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:25 am

The unions in Oz are sector wide. But they organise at the workplace level.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:42 am

pErvin wrote:The unions in Oz are sector wide. But they organise at the workplace level.
Why dont they sector wide agreements then. Do they operate a close shop policy?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:17 am

They do do sector wide agreements.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:58 am

pErvin wrote:They do do sector wide agreements.
How about close shops which are illegal here?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Clothes shops are illegal.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:10 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
pErvin wrote:They do do sector wide agreements.
How about close shops which are illegal here?
I'm not sure what that means.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:35 pm

pErvin wrote:The unions in Oz are sector wide. But they organise at the workplace level.
You misunderstand. Agreements are made sector wide. In the Netherlands (and Germany) agreements are not made between employers and, say, the electricians union. They are made between, say, the mining industry and everybody who is employed by it, be they electricians, train drivers, filing clerk or whatever. Similarly, everybody, electricians, train drivers, filing clerk or whatever, sits down with representatives of the chemical industry and together they negotiate a sector wide agreement for everyone who works there regardless of their trade. This does not mean that the filing clerk gets the same working conditions and pay as the electrician. It just means negotiations conducted in the chemical, metal workers, mining and any other industrial sectors run holistically within each sector and independently from each other.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:29 pm

Well more or less Hermit. :tup:

It is a different concept to most Anglo-Saxon lands. I know Belgium has the same system. It seams to avoid strikes. Strikes here are usually to show unhappiness with the present situation and take place at the least time of causing problems. They are an indication ie. the tram drivers had a strike last year and took place from 10 to 14 hours for two days. It troubled very few but indicated uneasiness. Companies have many controls placed on them as I explained previously. Workers are well protected as are their working conditions. The Employment Laws cover everything and to guard them is the Arbodienst. The government inspectorate. If the company is over a certain size people on members of staff are appointed work place inspectors and fall under protection of the Arbowet (labour laws). No action can be taken against them for reporting any offences. Under Dutch law a worker is entitled to space, heat and light. 8 squ.Metres of floor space, good ventilation and ability to look outside from his workplace are just a few.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:41 am

It seems to me the larger the union is the more chance there is for corruption and nepotism getting in the way of a good bargaining deal. Not to mention a specific trade's issues get lost amounts all the other issues. I can't see it makes sense to have sector wide agreements. Cleaners face a whole host of different problems to electricians to office clerks.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:59 am

pErvin wrote:It seems to me the larger the union is the more chance there is for corruption and nepotism getting in the way of a good bargaining deal.
The SDA (shop assistants union) here in Australia comes to mind. A deal it agreed on with Australia's largest employers, Woolworths, Coles, McDonalds, Hungy Jacks etc, resulted in half the affected employees being worse off than under the previous award conditions. The companies were "saving" about 300 million dollars a year as a result since 2013.
pErvin wrote:Not to mention a specific trade's issues get lost amounts all the other issues. I can't see it makes sense to have sector wide agreements. Cleaners face a whole host of different problems to electricians to office clerks.
They don't get lost. "This does not mean that the filing clerk gets the same working conditions and pay as the electrician." Their pay and conditions are negotiated in light of their different tasks and work environments.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:24 am

What's the point? Why have sector wide agreements if they going to individualise them for subsectors? The bigger the organisation the less critical is any particular segments concerns.
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