Netherlands Election 2017

[Svartalf]

They voted for uncooperative prics, to their reps won't get any cooperation and will serve nothing, not so different from France where 5 million FN voters are without a deputy in the chamber, thanks to having no majority in any circonscription

[Hermit]

The point is, it looks like PVV is still trending up, and getting more and more seats each election.

That is factually wrong. The PVV gained 5 seats in this election, but it lost 9 in the previous one. I pointed this out to you here. Are you into alternative facts? It seems to be something right wingers are particularly fond of.

They gained 5 seats, and the VVD lost 8 or 9. The other parties have fewer seats, in the last article I looked at, than the PVV, making the PVV the party with the second most seats. That sure looks like a good result for them. They've never had more than 24 seats.

Ahem.

...they had a peak and a setback, their trend is upward from their inception to date. No party has exclusively a straight line up -- over time, even a party gaining influence will have a jagged line.

Exactly. Your assertion that the PVV is getting more and more seats each election is factually wrong. As for general trends, every party starts with zero parliamentary members at one stage. So, as long as it has any sitting members at all, its overall trend is always upwards. You insist to somewhat inaccurately call the difference between one election and the next a trend. That's OK with me, as long as you acknowledge that the PVV still has not quite recovered from its previous "trend", where it lost nine of the seats which it had won in the elections before that.

...people advancing a proposition bear the burden of supporting it with evidence

Like when they propose that the PVV is getting more and more seats each election. The ball was in your court then, don't you think?

Well, they got 9, then 24, then 15, then 20, so...

...it's factually wrong to say the PVV is getting more and more seats each election. Is it an insult to point this out?

As for the PVV being dead, feel free to argue about it with anybody who said that.

[pErvinalia]

It has 20 seats, there are 130 other reps to create a coalition, what don't you understand in the fact that those 130 will find enough (75) among them to form a coalition and leave the DVV to rot in the rain?

Oh, I understand that they will do that. What don't you understand about the fact that those who voted for the PVV, and/or almost voted for the PVV or considered it, will see the party with the second largest number of seats shut out of the negotiating room. They may well be a bit miffed at that.

Also, it may well be that next election, with another loss for VVD, and another gain for PVV, the analysis might start to change.

yeah, I wouldn't discount Wilders just yet. If disaffection continues with the status quo parties (which it will for PVV supporters, at least in part, for the reason you mentioned above), him or his "movement" will reappear at some point in the future. We've seen just that in Australia at the last federal election. Not sure if everyone is aware of who Pauline Hanson is, but she rose to political fame about 20 or perhaps even more years ago on a racist and insular platform. She did well for an election or two, and then was rubbished out of the political scene by the media and the regular political parties. Well, she popped up again at the last election and was* stronger than ever. Most of her support is of the same form as Trump's support.

* - since the election her party has started fragmenting as invariably happens when you have mentally deficient lunatic candidates.

[JimC]

Yep. Dutchy's rather frantic posts that "he is dead" are ignoring the potential that parties like his represent, even if at the moment they can have little political impact, given the reluctance of others to coalition with them. As 42 rightly observes, that could be subject to change in the future; political parties are amoral opportunists when it comes to grasping for power...

[Hermit]

Not sure if everyone is aware of who Pauline Hanson is, but she rose to political fame about 20 or perhaps even more years ago on a racist and insular platform. She did well for an election or two, and then was rubbished out of the political scene by the media and the regular political parties.

In my opinion Pee Pantsdown's first decline in voter appeal was chiefly due to John Howard appropriating her policies regarding non-Anglo-Saxons.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Scot Dutchy]

Yep. Dutchy's rather frantic posts that "he is dead" are ignoring the potential that parties like his represent, even if at the moment they can have little political impact, given the reluctance of others to coalition with them. As 42 rightly observes, that could be subject to change in the future; political parties are amoral opportunists when it comes to grasping for power...

My posts are not frantic just realistic. This is not an anglo-saxon country. We have consensus politics here. 42 cant get the typical anglo-saxon adversarial
system out of his head. We dont have winners and losers in the a-s way. The winners are those who can form a coalition. Wilders did not want to initially speak with anyone then all of a sudden he wants to but no one wants to talk with him. He has been sent into the political wilderness from which many politicians seldom return.
Number of MP's is no guarantee of a place at the negotiation table. The best possibility of a coalition is VVD, CDA, D'66, and Groen Links. Personally I dont think this will float. GL and VVD oppose each other on many policies. I dont think Klaver is ready to hitch his wagon to the VVD. Coalition failure could have drastic consequences as we saw with PvdA. Klaver is already looking four years down the road.

[rainbow]

Yeah, that's a good point.

The other point is that she had the political charisma of a turnip.

[Hermit]

...she had the political charisma of a turnip.

Even if "political charisma" were a meaningful concept "potato chip" would fit better than "turnip".

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, that's a good point.

The other point is that she had the political charisma of a turnip.

True, but in a way that is a benefit these days in anti-establishment politics.

[Forty Two]

..it's factually wrong to say the PVV is getting more and more seats each election. Is it an insult to point this out?

No, but if you use a moving average as I suggested, the trend line is up.

But it does not matter. PVV obviously did well in the election, receiving the second most seats. If any other of the smaller parties did that, then they would not be characterized as a loss.

As for the PVV being dead, feel free to argue about it with anybody who said that.

I was - Dutchy argued that.

It's very interesting. I get where he's coming from, and I get where you're coming from. I don't think we disagree in principle.

Cheers.

[Hermit]

I don't think we disagree in principle.

It's a rare occasion but here we have two points of agreement. The trend is up. I was merely pointing out sloppy argumentation. Yes, it's pedantic, but my intermittent OCD reared its head at the time. And yes, while the PVV has next to no chance to become part of the governing coalition now and in the foreseeable future, that situation is not guaranteed to remain in perpetuity. Humans can be fickle and the Dutch are as human as everybody else. I heard they even put their pants on like everyone else - one leg at a time. I would not regard the second-largest party of a country as quite as dead as John Cleese's parrot anyway.

[Forty Two]

Pants? The Dutch have progressed beyond pants decades ago.

[Hermit]

Pants? The Dutch have progressed beyond pants decades ago.

At least the ones of Scott's age. They have progressed right back to being swaddled in diapers.

[pErvinalia]

I don't think we disagree in principle.

It's a rare occasion but here we have two points of agreement. The trend is up. I was merely pointing out sloppy argumentation. Yes, it's pedantic, but my intermittent OCD reared its head at the time. And yes, while the PVV has next to no chance to become part of the governing coalition now and in the foreseeable future, that situation is not guaranteed to remain in perpetuity. Humans can be fickle and the Dutch are as human as everybody else.

Yeah, but they wear wooden shoes, so it might be a bit much to include them in the category "human"...