To defeat trolls, we need to do more than jail them

[cronus]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... Efw6yLF81I

To defeat trolls, we need to do more than jail them

Changing entrenched attitudes that trivialise cyber-harassment against women will take more than harsh sentences, says law professor Danielle Citron

A spate of violent threats against high-profile women on social media has prompted the UK to announce longer jail terms for online harassment. The maximum sentence looks likely to rise from six months to two years. It's a positive move, but more action is needed.

From the internet's earliest days, concerns about ensuring free speech have been centre stage. The mantra "all information should be free" is a firmly entrenched norm in cyberspace. Civil libertarians have accomplished much in the past 20 years.

But not so much for civil rights, which have largely been ignored until recent months. The internet has all too often reflected and reinforced the power imbalances of offline experiences rather than serving as an engine of equality. That is why combating cyber-harassment, including the prevalent threats of sexual violence facing women today, is going to be difficult.

In the UK, the intention to increase the maximum prison sentence is welcome. But much more remains to be done to shift attitudes.

(continued)

[piscator]

Y mad Danielle? Trying to institute some sort of feminist version of honor violence against those who get ur goat? Want to make doxing the sole purview of responsible government ministries and licensed practitioners? Want to get raped by a rampaging rhino with sand on his shaft?

[cronus]

Someway to go.

[klr]

I thought putting them out in the daylight usually did the trick?

[JimC]

Troll sat alone on his seat of stone,
And munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it near,
For meat was hard to come by.
Done by! Gum by!
In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone,
And meat was hard to come by.

Up came Tom with his big boots on.
Said he to Troll: 'Pray, what is yon?
For it looks like the shin o' my nuncle Tim.
As should be a-lyin' in the graveyard.
Caveyard! Paveyard!
This many a year has Tim been gone,
And I thought he were lyin' in the graveyard.'

'My lad,' said Troll, 'this bone I stole.
But what be bones that lie in a hole?
Thy nuncle was dead as a lump o' lead,
Afore I found his shinbone.
Tinbone! Skinbone!
He can spare a share for a poor old troll,
For he don't need his shinbone.'

Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
Rover! Trover!
Though dead he be, it belongs to he;
So hand the old bone over!'

'For a couple o' pins,' says Troll, and grins,
'I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.
A bit o' fresh meat will go down sweet!
I'll try my teeth on thee now.
Hee now! See now!
I'm tired o' gnawing old bones and skins;
I've a mind to dine on thee now.'

But just as he thought his dinner was caught,
He found his hands had hold of naught.
Before he could mind, Tom slipped behind
And gave him the boot to larn him.
Warn him! Darn him!
A bump o' the boot on the seat, Tom thought,
Would be the way to larn him.

But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
Of a troll that sits in the hills alone.
As well set your boot to the mountain's root,
For the seat of a troll don't feel it.
Peel it! Heal it!
Old Troll laughed, when he heard Tom groan,
And he knew his toes could feel it.

Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's old seat is still the same,
And the bone he boned from its owner!
-- J R R Tolkien

[laklak]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online? Tell them to go fuck a dead goat. Maybe it's just age, I couldn't give a rat's what 99.9999% of ground apes think about me. Or more accurately, what they think about anything, assuming you can call that 60 Hz buzz in their heads 'thought'.

[Hermit]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online?

When a bully tweets the actual address of his target, and announces that he'll get physically violent, or when he tweets that he will attend a conference she is scheduled to speak at with a legally concealed gun, then shoot her, bullying goes beyond saying nasty things about someone online.

[pErvinalia]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online? Tell them to go fuck a dead goat. Maybe it's just age, I couldn't give a rat's what 99.9999% of ground apes think about me. Or more accurately, what they think about anything, assuming you can call that 60 Hz buzz in their heads 'thought'.

I think death and rape threats etc, go too far. That really shouldn't be acceptable behaviour. But regarding general abuse, this isn't real life, there's ways to avoid or screen out people in the cyber world.

[pErvinalia]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online?

When a bully tweets the actual address of his target, and announces that he'll get physically violent, or when he tweets that he will attend a conference she is scheduled to speak at with a legally concealed gun, then shoot her, bullying goes beyond saying nasty things about someone online.

Yeah, good points.

What annoys me about this debate is that they are calling these people "trolls". Trolls are annoyances, not threats. People who pose threats are potential criminals. "Troll" is the wrong word, and implies that just being a douche online could be enough to get you in trouble with the law.

[laklak]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online?

When a bully tweets the actual address of his target, and announces that he'll get physically violent, or when he tweets that he will attend a conference she is scheduled to speak at with a legally concealed gun, then shoot her, bullying goes beyond saying nasty things about someone online.

I wouldn't call that bullying or trolling, I'd call that assault. Say that IRL around here and you'll be spending a few days in county. Maybe that's what needs to change, threats made online should be treated the same way we treat similar threats made face to face.

[Hermit]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online?

When a bully tweets the actual address of his target, and announces that he'll get physically violent, or when he tweets that he will attend a conference she is scheduled to speak at with a legally concealed gun, then shoot her, bullying goes beyond saying nasty things about someone online.

I wouldn't call that bullying or trolling, I'd call that assault. Say that IRL around here and you'll be spending a few days in county. Maybe that's what needs to change, threats made online should be treated the same way we treat similar threats made face to face.

You said that bullying is just someone is saying nasty things about you online. Therefore any statement made in the cyberworld that goes beyond nasty is not bullying. Circularity of argument noted. In my view bullying can be both.

[cronus]

It should be possible to curtail the 'idiot' behaviour with one or two high profile examples ending in court? Some retro cases where stuff from years ago is used to convict a historic case or two would remind people that anything you say online is there for 'eternity' and might be used against you later?

[Seth]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online?

When a bully tweets the actual address of his target, and announces that he'll get physically violent, or when he tweets that he will attend a conference she is scheduled to speak at with a legally concealed gun, then shoot her, bullying goes beyond saying nasty things about someone online.

Good reason for the victim to carry a legally-concealed handgun I'd say...

[Seth]

I just don't get this cyber bullying thing. Ok, maybe for 12 year old girls, but adults? Someone is saying nasty things about you online? Tell them to go fuck a dead goat. Maybe it's just age, I couldn't give a rat's what 99.9999% of ground apes think about me. Or more accurately, what they think about anything, assuming you can call that 60 Hz buzz in their heads 'thought'.

I think death and rape threats etc, go too far. That really shouldn't be acceptable behaviour. But regarding general abuse, this isn't real life, there's ways to avoid or screen out people in the cyber world.

It's not acceptable, and everywhere I know of death and rape threats are criminal offenses for which the perpetrator can be arrested, if he or she can be identified.

[Seth]

It should be possible to curtail the 'idiot' behaviour with one or two high profile examples ending in court? Some retro cases where stuff from years ago is used to convict a historic case or two would remind people that anything you say online is there for 'eternity' and might be used against you later?

I think the law would acknowledge that a long-past unfulfilled threat has expired as a criminal offense under the notion that to be a criminal threat it has to be a) credible; b) factually possible ("I'm going to drop a nuke on you" is neither factually possible nor credible and is hyperbole); and c) imminent.

Trying to convict someone for saying "I'm going to blow your ass away" two years ago is not likely to be a successful strategy for suppressing internet threats.

The internet is no different from anywhere else. If someone poses a credible threat, you deal with it. Arm yourself, become situationally aware, report it to police and follow through on prosecution if the perpetrator is caught and charged.

For hyperbolic anonymous on-line harassment the solution is even more simple: Turn off the computer or ignore the loon... And get a concealed carry permit and a handgun, just in case.