Geert Wilders: Scumbag or Legend?

[Svartalf]

Thanks, Geert.

Are you making the same mistake of equating the Qur'an with all Muslims?

given that the quran is often more moderate than the hadith them muslims go by, if they even go by hadith rather than by unscriptural custom... your argument is invalid

[Hermit]

Thanks, Geert.

Are you making the same mistake of equating the Qur'an with all Muslims?

given that the quran is often more moderate than the hadith them muslims go by, if they even go by hadith rather than by unscriptural custom... your argument is invalid

Please clarify. Are you saying that all Muslims are glued to the hadiths?

[Brian Peacock]

It's a sticky subject, that's for sure.

[Svartalf]

Thanks, Geert.

Are you making the same mistake of equating the Qur'an with all Muslims?

given that the quran is often more moderate than the hadith them muslims go by, if they even go by hadith rather than by unscriptural custom... your argument is invalid

Please clarify. Are you saying that all Muslims are glued to the hadiths?

I'm just saying the hadith are a great body of material complementing the quran and sometimes making it clearer; they are greatly beloved of scholars... not that newly radicalized "muslims" who are generally idiots manipulated by svengalis barely more expert than themselves know a thing about hadith.
If anything, I suspect that the terrorists are too stupid to understand their value and belong to a "Quran Only" movement.

[Scot Dutchy]

The hadith is a big point of conflict in the muslim world. Not all accept them.

[Svartalf]

And then there's contention about which collections of hadith are valid etc... but the salafi are fundies and not open to intelligent debate, they just cherry pick what they like from the Qur'an and decree everybody who disagree to be an apostate and heretic devil.

[Hermit]

The hadith is...

are. There are several collections of them, and not only is each a source of conflict for its interpreters, but they also conflict with each other in places.

[JimC]

Perhaps the large amount of often violent internal conflict in the muslim world is pragmatically a useful thing for the rest of the world...

[Brian Peacock]

Oh, the horror.

[Jason]

Surprisingly enough, Islam has a history of being very tolerant of other religions - look at the history of the Ottoman Empire for example - much more tolerant than Christianity has proven to be historically. The history of Islamic conflicts, where ideology has been at the core of the dispute, has Islam usually on the defensive. This is true from its inception to modern times.

[Svartalf]

Yeah, sure, islam is very tolerant of other religions, that's how islam dominated areas became muzzy to an overwhelming majority...

[Jason]

In places like India, for example, certain empires were Islamic and aggressively expansionist as well. However, they never persecuted the resident Hindus, Jains, Christians, Jews, or Buddhists. It is true pride of place in court was given to those who held the Islamic faith, but otherwise a person of any faith was free to go about their business in society. They were not persecuted or harassed or made subject of an inquisition for their 'heretical' beliefs. In the Ottoman Empire a person of non-Islamic persuasion had only to pay the non-Islamic tax to enjoy all the benefits of citizenship in an Islamic state. This covers about 1200 years of Islamic rule. Compare that to the fate of non-Christians in Europe for the same time period and I know you won't be able to say the same.

Islam has proven itself to be more understanding and accepting of different beliefs than Christianity. That's simply a historical fact.

[JimC]

In places like India, for example, certain empires were Islamic and aggressively expansionist as well. However, they never persecuted the resident Hindus, Jains, Christians, Jews, or Buddhists. It is true pride of place in court was given to those who held the Islamic faith, but otherwise a person of any faith was free to go about their business in society. They were not persecuted or harassed or made subject of an inquisition for their 'heretical' beliefs. In the Ottoman Empire a person of non-Islamic persuasion had only to pay the non-Islamic tax to enjoy all the benefits of citizenship in an Islamic state. This covers about 1200 years of Islamic rule. Compare that to the fate of non-Christians in Europe for the same time period and I know you won't be able to say the same.

Islam has proven itself to be more understanding and accepting of different beliefs than Christianity. That's simply a historical fact.

It is certainly not true in some places today, and not just in the territory of Islamic State. Consider how freely other religions are to practice their faith on most parts of the Arabian Peninsular, or in Pakistan/Afghanistan...

[Jason]

True, but this is attributable to the rise of extremism which is a response to foreign imposition in their internal politics. 'We' invaded, killed their children in the name of Christian democracy, and now we see support for extremists who promise to restore their former way of life and exact vengeance upon those who did them harm. I don't think it's endemic to Islam; I think it is a product of an ignorant warmongering policy which both our nations, Australia and Canada, signed up for.

[JimC]

True, but this is attributable to the rise of extremism which is a response to foreign imposition in their internal politics. 'We' invaded, killed their children in the name of Christian democracy, and now we see support for extremists who promise to restore their former way of life and exact vengeance upon those who did them harm. I don't think it's endemic to Islam; I think it is a product of an ignorant warmongering policy which both our nations, Australia and Canada, signed up for.

Without denying that the military actions of the West, whether justified or not, may have fanned the flames, I don't think it is the primary factor. The fundamentalists have made their belief in a religious war for religious reasons abundantly clear, and their particular delusion is the primary cause for both their utterly rigid views and their violence against anyone (including fellow muslims) who do not share their own version of islam.