Respecting other cultures...

[floppit]

....does not mean converting to their religion, nor does it mean excusing their murderers, or to take on board without reserve their most barking rules and laws, it doesn't mean getting one's fecking nose pierced or wearing cheese cloth tops, it has fuck all to do one's political leanings (except of course where politics attempts to cash in on nationalistic emotions) and in no sense does it require the support of child abuse when it takes place outside our own culture, or growing dreadlocks. All of the above have profoundly and absolutely nothing to do with respecting another culture - in my admittedly not so very humble opinion.

What respecting another culture means is to have the savvy to grasp that just as different cultures will (and do) screw up in their own unique and remarkable ways they also achieve unique and remarkable success in others. It's being able to appreciate that our own culture produces a string of unwanted children which even on a little island like the uk leaves 10's of 1000's without permanent parents and once in their teens rarely wanted for long, that our cultures contain murder most foul and for the most irrational of reasons, hate crimes and domestic violence, that our law courts have abhorrent injustice in their history and yet still have not eradicated institutionalised inequality.

In short respect does not mean absolute and tacit agreement with the most shocking examples of abuse, it means taking what works and understanding that's probably also a sensible way of looking at our own culture. I learned more in a couple of hours sat down with a muslim respectfully than I have ever learned from the ranting about how and why such respect is misguided.

Maybe one day I'll convince a few others of this but probably not - it doesn't have the same ego feel good topping. I'm not alone though, I know that.

[maiforpeace]

Floppit, you grace me with your gems of wisdom.

[floppit]

I know it's not just me that thinks that way - I've just got so bored of the 'off the shelf' notions of what respect is.

[Toontown]

Whatever ancillary "good" exists in a culture that inculcates honor killing...is not worth it.

[floppit]

Whatever ancillary "good" exists in a culture that inculcates honor killing...is not worth it.

Unfortunately and more realistically it is only that good which provides hope. Name a culture anywhere that has no such atrocity in it's past.

[Rum]

There is a problem with this approach I fear and that is that it works when people from these other cultures conform to at least some of our liberal western values, mostly around the idea of individual rights and the avoidance of oppression.

As soon as they decide that some religious requirement is not being met because of this, that and the other and they introduce what is to us and unreasonable law or regulation to enforce it, then we are in conflict territory.

Have a conversation about homosexuality with the group you refer to for example..

[Toontown]

Whatever ancillary "good" exists in a culture that inculcates honor killing...is not worth it.

Unfortunately and more realistically it is only that good which provides hope. Name a culture anywhere that has no such atrocity in it's past.

Sorry, that's not enough "hope" for me. Certainly not enough to make me willing to tolerate their unacceptable behaviors on my soil. If you Brits and Canadians want them, you take them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

NOBODY gets my respect automatically. And entire cultures will NEVER get my respect. (If they're lucky they'll get my tolerance of them.)

[Martok]

Cultures that force women to hide under a shroud or hang gays doesn't deserve respect they deserve endless condemnation.

I've talked to Muslims to. Back in 2000 most of them voted for Bush!!

Before 9/11 I think many Muslim-Americans of Arab/Asian descent felt more comfortable with a Christian conservative than they did with a liberal.

[PsychoSerenity]

There is a problem with this approach I fear and that is that it works when people from these other cultures conform to at least some of our liberal western values, mostly around the idea of individual rights and the avoidance of oppression.

As soon as they decide that some religious requirement is not being met because of this, that and the other and they introduce what is to us and unreasonable law or regulation to enforce it, then we are in conflict territory.

Have a conversation about homosexuality with the group you refer to for example..

I'm not sure what happens with immigration, what sort of process other people would have to go through, if anything, before they are allowed to live here. I think in general it's a positive thing, as long as it leads to integration of different cultures - rather than violence between them.

It would seem sensible to me, especially with someone from a wildly different culture, to give them some level of education about the society they're entering, how to integrate, and make sure they understand what will and won't be tolerated - before letting them in. Does anything like that happen?

[klr]

NOBODY gets my respect automatically. And entire cultures will NEVER get my respect. (If they're lucky they'll get my tolerance of them.)

+1

I don't like to be so obdurate in the face of the sentiments in the OP, but I think to myself: This is the 21st century. Enlightenment should be for all, and anyone who wants to bury themselves in baseless superstition and deadening (if not toxic) cultural baggage is not going to get my respect. And that view I take with everybody. Yes, there but for the grace of circumstance go you and I, as we could just as easily have been brainwashed and coerced into living the same sort of life. But I still have precious little tolerance ...

There is a problem with this approach I fear and that is that it works when people from these other cultures conform to at least some of our liberal western values, mostly around the idea of individual rights and the avoidance of oppression.

As soon as they decide that some religious requirement is not being met because of this, that and the other and they introduce what is to us and unreasonable law or regulation to enforce it, then we are in conflict territory.

Have a conversation about homosexuality with the group you refer to for example..

This as well.

[floppit]

There is a problem with this approach I fear and that is that it works when people from these other cultures conform to at least some of our liberal western values, mostly around the idea of individual rights and the avoidance of oppression.

As soon as they decide that some religious requirement is not being met because of this, that and the other and they introduce what is to us and unreasonable law or regulation to enforce it, then we are in conflict territory.

Have a conversation about homosexuality with the group you refer to for example..

I think a major step towards the support of individual rights and avoidance of oppression is to stop seeing other groups as amorphous globs, but instead realise that regardless of leaders or religion there will always be individual differences. Nor would I suggest there's no place for conflict, there is, both within and between cultures. I'm not talking about sycophantic liberalism without the nuts to be straight about what is abusive - that's not respect, that's patronisation.

I respect other cultures enough to be open about where I disagree and talk to people as individuals not as 'the group'.

Have a conversation about homosexuality with the group you refer to for example..

Not quite sure what you mean here, to gather every muslim or any muslim, or a muslim that conforms to the worst stereotypes, a terrorist? If you just mean not avoiding the topic then...

... the second time I visited Sri Lanka I travelled with a gay couple so the topic came up rather a lot as you can imagine, that trip led to friendship with the muslim boat tour guys, a handful of catholics with a couple of hindus thrown in!

[floppit]

This is the 21st century. Enlightenment should be for all, and anyone who wants to bury themselves in baseless superstition and deadening (if not toxic) cultural baggage is not going to get my respect. And that view I take with everybody.

What about people you've come across (assuming you have) that were once believers and now not? Remember - just to be extra clear, I'm not talking about respect for the superstition but where we fail to offer any respect to the person we are very unlikely to see change. Also the presence of superstitious or erroneous belief doesn't preclude all levels of reasoning, if a person fasts in ramadam but also sets up a successful co-op that help sustain a village and still sees the latter as an expression of muslim values I can't imagine anything less rational than to refuse to see the co-op works or to acknowledge the intelligence that went into it - if I did that I'd be no better off than the believer who sees it as Allah's doing! I've met enough people that have changed beliefs in a lifetime to know that there is and always will be some room for manoeuvre.

Last of all, let me know if this is correct in regard to the logic of those choosing to have no respect for other cultures:
The respect is withdrawn in the presence of any popular but harmful/abusive belief?
The respect is withdrawn for all those within that culture? Or just some?
The respect is withdrawn for all parts of the belief system based on the worst examples without account or consideration for any other parts, either neutral or positive?
Once respect is withdrawn they do not need to be treated as human beings? - I realise that's extreme and am NOT suggesting it's the case here, but sometimes when I hear how an individual must earn respect (basic human respect) I do wonder if we don't open the door to this as a way of thinking.

[Hermit]

respect does not mean absolute and tacit agreement with the most shocking examples of abuse, it means taking what works and understanding that's probably also a sensible way of looking at our own culture.

Uhm. Yes. What does that mean in practical terms, though? What, for example, shall we take from Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Myanmar or Colombia? Yes, those countries are teeming with essentially likable, honest, law-abiding and hard working people - just like all other nations on earth, so please don't waffle. Be specific when you tell us what we can take aboard from them that isn't available anywhere else.

[floppit]

respect does not mean absolute and tacit agreement with the most shocking examples of abuse, it means taking what works and understanding that's probably also a sensible way of looking at our own culture.

Uhm. Yes. What does that mean in practical terms, though? What, for example, shall we take from Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Myanmar or Colombia? Yes, those countries are teeming with essentially likable, honest, law-abiding and hard working people - just like all other nations on earth, so please don't waffle. Be specific when you tell us what we can take aboard from them that isn't available anywhere else.

I haven't met anyone from the places you listed so it would make it hard for me to answer with direct reference to them. I hope if I was to meet someone I'd be as keen to see the aspects that work as the ones that don't. But, in fairness, it's reasonable to ask to be specific so here goes:
*I knew a woman from Zimbabwe who had a particular way of shaking hands, after I noticed it with her I've since seen it fairly frequently in Africans. She would shake hands as we do except add her second hand - much warmer. I stole it!
*Non sexual physical affection - I wrote a thread on that a while back, it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it's sadly lacking, in so many countries men hold hands and walk arm in arm with other men, women do each other's hair. Considering how liberated we are in many other respects.
*The work ethic, in particular with respect to education that in a variety of cultures exceeds the west.
*Patience, again something I wrote a while back but the sense an answer doesn't have to be found 'now' in order to make a disciplined approach worth it, repeating things that have historically just made things worse purely because a better solution isn't obvious isn't all that rational (that was a muslim).
*Another one from Sri Lanka is that their language has one word for both want and need, that gets quite complicated and could need a thread of it's own but SL'an friends felt that our distinction was about judging a person who needs money rather than a 'real' and objective difference.

These are all personal examples, but as I maintained from the start it isn't about the prevailing institutions but the culture that exists between those ordinary people who are mostly more like us than different. There are a whole load of things I just liked, from time spent cooking a meal to introducing people as 'a very good friend'. If over everything else I had to pick one thing I've often seen in people from other places it would be the willingness to think about stuff like this, to ask each other, to talk about stuff and how it works without having to make it a pissing competition - THAT I like.