Everything you didn't want to know about Trump and were not afraid to ask

[Cunt]

I want the state to treat children in a way that doesn't traumatise them.

Since these kids were just traumatized by the circumstances around their guardian being caught engaging in illegal behaviour, that is going to be tough.

You are the state, Brian Peacock. It isn't 'they'. What are you going to do?

Or at least, what do you think should be done by governemnt when a family of criminals including chidren, is arrested and deported?

I think the policy, which the current administration didn't invent but merely ramped up, is morally dubious and amounts to a cruel and unusual punishment.

I honestly don't know how it is administered at the moment. What I notice though, is how much 'marketing wank' is included with these kinds of stories.

You have a CRATE of it yourself - and I don't think you are deliberately dishonest.

I would suggest assigning a social worker to each family seeking entry into the country who could shepherd them through the processes of paperwork and hearings - and if their application was unsuccessful a right to appeal before being returned, if needed.

This is weird...you were talking about crimmigrants (those who are guilty of the crime of being in the country without permission) and here you seem to be talking about immigrants. (those who are navigating the lawful process of immigration or claiming refugee status)

But that's not the point. The point is that I'm challenging you to offer some justification for this practice.

I justify the securing of borders the same way I justify the securing of my home.
Or are you asking me to justify something else?

At the moment we have: that as criminals they only have themselves to blame,

This seems to be part of our misunderstanding each other.

I do think they are criminals, but not that they only have themselves to blame. Their circumstances might not be their own making. They could be someone's slave, victim or only loved one. I get it, that there will be tragic, honest pain.

Criminals are people too. I think we (and the US) should treat them better, but don't really know how either.

and that doing better is too difficult to contemplate.

I think we have been contemplating it here, difficult or not.

I don't think we are all that special. Loads of people are.

How many countries address their immigration issues without separating children and putting them in cages?

I don't know, but isn't anyone in custody in a cage, really? This facility looks make-shift, like they adapted a space, very recently, to serve as a jail.

What DO other countries do? If we only consider immigration from Central America and south, does their treatment of illegal immigration show better, or worse than the US?

[Brian Peacock]

The next question will be: "How do you know the adults in charge aren't caring?"

[Cunt]

No, I'm beginning to think all you have is that big crate of marketing wank. If you have any of your own thoughts on it, those might interest me.

But that crate you wanked about...it really makes you seem full of baloney.

I think I would rather have Trump making peace in the Korean peninsula, repatriating the remains of long-lost soldiers, and having a laugh at big important meetings, for marketing wank, than your story about crates for kids.

[pErvinalia]

I don't know where "crates" came from, but they are clearly being kept in wire cages with bare cement floors. With pieces of foil for a blanket.

[Cunt]

I don't know where "crates" came from, but they are clearly being kept in wire cages with bare cement floors. With pieces of foil for a blanket.

The 'crates' were mentioned by another user...probably parroting something the media said without knowing anything about crates.

That's why I referred to 'crates of marketing wank'.

A bit juvenile, I'll admit.

[Brian Peacock]

It's an equivocation, suggesting that the distinction between a cage and a crate is really the most important thing here. I think you just took exception to my suggestion that the kids were being treated worse than livestock. I've given you my thoughts, but I guess you've been too busy snipping my sentences at the sub-clause to really notice.

[pErvinalia]

I don't know where "crates" came from, but they are clearly being kept in wire cages with bare cement floors. With pieces of foil for a blanket.

The 'crates' were mentioned by another user...probably parroting something the media said without knowing anything about crates.

That's why I referred to 'crates of marketing wank'.

A bit juvenile, I'll admit.

The point is, the treatment of these kids is barbaric, whether it is a "crate" or a bare concrete and wire jail.

[Cunt]

It's an equivocation, suggesting that the distinction between a cage and a crate is really the most important thing here. I think you just took exception to my suggestion that the kids were being treated worse than livestock. I've given you my thoughts, but I guess you've been too busy snipping my sentences at the sub-clause to really notice.

I understand your thoughts. I also know where you got them.

I'm guessing it isn't by working for ICE, or the sanitation company who services those port-a-potties in the background (INdoors...shudder)

No, my guess would be (partly based on the crate claim, which I have heard many times) it is from news reports.

I admit to not knowing how the details are administered. Honestly, my take is that the photo doesn't look like people trying to be terrible. It looks like poor resources available, but it looked clean, the space-blankets were new-ish and possibly temporary...

Can we forget about the details to try something?

Forty Two touched on it. How would you deal with complex immigration security? You have honest and dishonest families. You have child trafficking and you have smugglers. All the honest and dishonest groups agree to use children when trying to penetrate the border you must secure.

What a fucking mess. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but as a thought exercise, I would like you to try it. See if you can put yourself in charge, knowing that you have to make tough decisions, and start seeing how shitty it is.

You and I are safer because of secure borders. Truly. We benefit from the enforcement you are complaining about, so I think you owe it to those ICE workers to think about it and see if you really can come up with a better way.

Side note, while you think about that, do you know what it means when you are working airport security and you find a young person with a metal spoon hidden in their underwear?

[pErvinalia]

You either detain the families together, or the children get temporarily fostered to loving families. It's a no-fucking-brainer. Housing them in the current conditions is barbaric.

[Cunt]

Thank you for having a go.

This is a fucking terrible problem, so I don't expect you can (or will) do well.

You either detain the families together,

How do you proceed if you find a metal spoon in the underpants of a young girl?

or the children get temporarily fostered to loving families. It's a no-fucking-brainer.

Not much experience with the foster care system, I'll guess...it is a HUGELY complicated job to look after the children (aged -0.2 to 19? or 18?) who may themselves be victims of or perpetrators of crime.

Anyway, I think in principle providing care is a terribly big duty, and a perfect argument for very speedy justice.

Detain I disagree with. I say bounce them immediately. I say it harshly, but it is because of that 'justice delayed is justice denied' principle.

Housing them in the current conditions is barbaric.

That isn't current. That is 2014, someone said.

If it is bad now, why not go volunteer around the crimmigrants? Nothing like an extra set of eyes around to see ICE and other government agencies, and let them see a citizen who is watching them do a good job.

So if a family flying from Chicago to Los Angeles is going through security, and two parents go through with three kids all under 19. One of the kids has a metal spoon hidden in her underwear, and it is discovered that they have no papers.

What do you do? Let's pretend it's 9:00 Monday morning and GO!

[pErvinalia]

Girls with metal spoons in their underwear? Whatchu smokin' Willis?

[pErvinalia]

Housing them in the current conditions is barbaric.

That isn't current. That is 2014, someone said.

That's exactly how they are still being housed. Do you live under a rock?

[Sean Hayden]

It's the lesser of two evils again. People can't get away from it.

It's climbing mount shit though, and we ought to break the habit.

It's simple. You don't detain them. You identify, set a court date, release.

[Sean Hayden]

Before you get your panties in a bunch consider I'm okay with problems, and risk, and a bunch other shit right-wingers tend to use to scare the public into more abuses of authority.

I ain't looking for perfection.

[pErvinalia]

Just adopt australia's solution and ship them off to tropical hell hole detention camps. No media allowed - solves all ethical problems.