The Pound is going down the Toilet

[Forty Two]

He's our 'everything expert'. Didn't you know?

I never said that. However, responding to my post by simply pointing a metaphorical finger and saying the equivalent of "you don't know nuthin' about no EU" surely does not constitute an expert opinion either. Was what I wrote there really all that controversial? It wasn't a personal attack or any sort of complete disregard of nuance regarding the EU. I wasn't just saying EU sucks, or that Brexit is awesome. Good cases can be made for the Brits staying in the EU, even if the EU is not a grand panacea. Both things can be true. And, surely there are things about the EU which are less than desirable? I mean, was the Greek issue really handled properly? Aren't there several EU countries that are in serious financial and economic doo-doo right now? Isn't there legitimate criticism of the EU's political structure? And, isn't there a legitimate concern over German dominance of the EU? Or, is everyone who writes and talks about these issues among the "you don't know nuthin about no EU" crowd?

[Rum]

I apologise for an uncalled for insult. However we have lived and breathed the Brexit debate for two years and more and your 'summary' seemed a bit glib to me - and possibly to the Dutchman - can't speak for him.

Your points were valid enough as far as they went but while the economic issues are of course important (and I think you underestimate them), there are wider issues to do with nationalism, a perceived retreat from 'progress' towards something bigger and better than nation states and a retrenchment into parochial and self serving suspicion and fear of the other.

We will be poorer without doubt - and perhaps for longer than many suspect, but we will, more importantly, be less than we were.

[JimC]

I agree, Rum - it's not just economics.

Mind you, that cuts both ways - hard Brexiters have their own non-economic motives (rather dodgy ones, IMO)

[Hermit]

Most of the EU's legislative work is done behind closed doors, in committee, away from prying eyes of constituents and citizens.

And all of it will then be tabled, debated and voted on in the very public European parliament. Procedurally no different to how any other government functions.

Brexit probably will hurt the UK in the short term, but it may well be a benefit in a few years.

Or, more likely not. There are sound economic reasons why the EU has grown from six to 28 member nations, 27 of which nations prefer to remain part of it, and why others are clamouring to join.

[Scot Dutchy]

This is pure bollocks at every turn as shows a complete lack of knowledge of the EU:

I wasn't just saying EU sucks, or that Brexit is awesome. Good cases can be made for the Brits staying in the EU, even if the EU is not a grand panacea. Both things can be true. And, surely there are things about the EU which are less than desirable? I mean, was the Greek issue really handled properly? Aren't there several EU countries that are in serious financial and economic doo-doo right now? Isn't there legitimate criticism of the EU's political structure? And, isn't there a legitimate concern over German dominance of the EU? Or, is everyone who writes and talks about these issues among the "you don't know nuthin about no EU" crowd?

1. The Greek Issue.

Greece fiddled the books in order to meet the requirements to get into the EU. It fiddled the books again to get into the Eurozone. There was total corruption at every level of society. Corrupt members of government were giving out civil service jobs as favours. One woman had 16 different jobs and was receiving a salary for everyone of them every month. There were 500 gardeners employed to cut a 20 squ.metre patch of grass by the parliament building. Greece ranup massive debts and finally asked the EU and the IMF to help. Of course they were treated hard but fare. Loans were arranged and debts finally paid off. It was hard for the country as they had to work for a change. Now Greece is growing faster than the UK and it it real genuine growth.

2. Financial problems.

Which countries have financial problems? The only one in severe financial trouble is the UK and thank fuck it is leaving. All other countries are growing. So think before you write crap.

3. Political system.

Just what is wrong with a democratic system? The EU is more democratic than almost all the countries outside it. Especially the USA and the UK. The parliament is elected by PR. The Council Europe is made up by leaders of all the countries in the EU who have been elected by their own country. The Commission is being reduced drastically in power which is being moved to the parliament. The Commission was set up as the quarter masters in the beginning and had absolute power. Now its job is done and is becoming obsolete. Germany has no more power than Romania. Everybody is equal which is one of the reasons the tories in the UK want to pull out. Thatcher had plans for Empire II but of course it failed. Its failure was the result of the removing of the veto in the Council for all but special points; countries wishing to join and agreements on leaving is another which the UK will experience itself shortly. Any agreement achieved at the Brexit negotiations has to be approved by the whole of the Council and Parliament. So UK's chances are looking not good.

The EU is very powerful in trade negotiations. It has massive clout as being the largest single market in the world. Its political structures are solid and fare. Further integration will now continue especially now the UK has left. The tantrum kid held back for 40 years any progress in that field.

It is here to stay unlike many other unions. We have a strong currency and a good economic structure which delivering growth and also we have sane leaders.

[mistermack]

There's nothing wrong with the EU, especially if you like being told what to do. It's ideal for those people.
It's very like China, it works and the people are in the main docile and obedient.
Why wouldn't former communist states want to join up? It's a no brainer.
They're used to being dominated and would rather have the EU than Russia.

Here's how the Euro has done against the Dollar this year.
The USA must be right in the shite. Stand by for boatloads of yanks landing in Normandy (again).
This time begging for asylum.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aj6xnQBERcVslxQ8VzO7mWy4-hNK

They are far less likely to come as tourists, with the dollar down the pan.

[Scot Dutchy]

There's nothing wrong with the EU, especially if you like being told what to do. It's ideal for those people.
It's very like China, it works and the people are in the main docile and obedient.
Why wouldn't former communist states want to join up? It's a no brainer.
They're used to being dominated and would rather have the EU than Russia.

Here's how the Euro has done against the Dollar this year.
The USA must be right in the shite. Stand by for boatloads of yanks landing in Normandy (again).
This time begging for asylum.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aj6xnQBERcVslxQ8VzO7mWy4-hNK

More bollocks. You are just making yourself look more ridiculous. Why is the UK leaving? Because it could stand the idea of being equal to everyone else. The idea of democracy scares the shit out of the tories. They love to work via the old boys networks. Corruption is the name of their game which they cant play in the EU.
The UK will be a third (world) country shortly and you are welcome to that. Enjoy the great division where the 1% will be even richer and the poor will be in the 21st century equivalent of the Victorian workhouse. Poverty will stalk the streets and social unrest will be common place.

[Hermit]

Why wouldn't former communist states want to join up? It's a no brainer.

Indeed. They want a piece of the cake, just like the other 27 nations. Great Britain wants out because your elite knows it can rape the rest of the population more easily. It persuaded the cretins that leaving will save them from living under the thumb of Muslamic law, and that was that.

[Rum]

(Edit: response to the Dutchman's last post)

Your posts are full of contradictions and emotional froth really aren't they? It is a shame really because I bitterly regret our leaving the EU and agree with your position if not your arguments. One minute it is good riddance to the UK - you are all so much better off without us and the next we are utter idiots for deciding to leave.

What on earth do you mean by we couldn't stand being equal to everyone else? And whatever you are getting at that was 52% of the total turnout in any case.

Please offer evidence of corruption. The international audit of corruption here: http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm gives the UK a score of 10 - equal to Germany and in the lowest 10% score wise internationally. Quite a few EU countries score higher. Just because you don't like the UK's class system - or its hangover, does not give you the right to throw any old shit at it.

The UK also scores in the top 10% internationally for its level of democracy incidentally - another bit of shit you threw at the country.

We will be poorer when we leave but we won't be a 'third world country' to quote you. We will still be rich by most comparisons and the eventual outcome a few years down the line is still an unknown.

Your posts would be far more credible if your anger and indeed fury directed against the country you decided to betray wasn't so obviously boiling in every post you make on the subject. There is room for balanced discussion on the issue.

[mistermack]

You have to make allowances.

It's hard to stick to reality with a big German sausage up your arse.

[rainbow]

You have to make allowances.

It's hard to stick to reality with a big German sausage up your arse.

We bow to your greater experience in these matters.

[Scot Dutchy]

(Edit: response to the Dutchman's last post)

Your posts are full of contradictions and emotional froth really aren't they? It is a shame really because I bitterly regret our leaving the EU and agree with your position if not your arguments. One minute it is good riddance to the UK - you are all so much better off without us and the next we are utter idiots for deciding to leave.

What on earth do you mean by we couldn't stand being equal to everyone else? And whatever you are getting at that was 52% of the total turnout in any case.

Please offer evidence of corruption. The international audit of corruption here: http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm gives the UK a score of 10 - equal to Germany and in the lowest 10% score wise internationally. Quite a few EU countries score higher. Just because you don't like the UK's class system - or its hangover, does not give you the right to throw any old shit at it.

The UK also scores in the top 10% internationally for its level of democracy incidentally - another bit of shit you threw at the country.

We will be poorer when we leave but we won't be a 'third world country' to quote you. We will still be rich by most comparisons and the eventual outcome a few years down the line is still an unknown.

Your posts would be far more credible if your anger and indeed fury directed against the country you decided to betray wasn't so obviously boiling in every post you make on the subject. There is room for balanced discussion on the issue.

You just dont see it do you. How can it be democratic? One party gets double the seats for half the votes of another party and that is democracy. You have a second chamber that is not even elected. Your politics are like your justice system is adversarial and this filters down into your society in the form of conflict or are you unable to see that? Your society is split and class is so important or are you unable to see that? Like plenty of Brits you cant see it. Everyday life in the UK conflict plays a role. In the work place and schools. Your kids are some of the unhappiest on the planet. Your workers have no say in the company they work for.
How is not corrupt? The old boys clubs are not corrupt? Why are not the 1% paying the taxes they should? They move money all over the place in tax avoidance. The corrupt index does not take into account that sort of practices.
Not a third world country? Sorry what will you be? Your health service will be only for those who can pay for it especially after it is sold off to the Americans. The same will be true of education. Your infrastructure needs renewing mind post Brexit it will be hardly needed. The housing bubble will burst and your money will be almost worthless.

[Rum]

Your incoherent scatter gun venom against the country of your birth is inconsistent, mostly irrational and based on your personal prejudice. It builds an extreme distorted picture of a country that is for the most part a pretty decent place to live and it does you no credit.

[Scot Dutchy]

Your incoherent scatter gun venom against the country of your birth is inconsistent, mostly irrational and based on your personal prejudice. It builds an extreme distorted picture of a country that is for the most part a pretty decent place to live and it does you no credit.

You must have pretty low standards then. That is all it is the country of my birth and I have no allegiance to it. What is not true? Your political system? Your social system? Your workplace? Where am I wrong?
In comparison with many so called civilised countries it fails badly if not disastrously. We are closing prisons but you cant build enough of them.

[rainbow]

The housing bubble will burst and your money will be almost worthless.

Yes, but the money stashed away in the British Virgin Islands is counted in US Dollars.