UK Tory/gummint dramaz!

[Scot Dutchy]

If you want to live with authoritarianist practices, then good for you. But it's totally uneccesary, and is illogical given your stated belief that everyone is inherently selfish and greedy.

You are really mixing up things. We were talking about something totally different so please stop mixing them up.

What is authoritarian about registering your address? Quite amazing.

[pErvinalia]

Because it's totally uneccesary. There's very little upside, and a lot of potential downside.

And people are either inherently greedy or not. So which one is it?

[Scot Dutchy]

Because it's totally uneccesary. There's very little upside, and a lot of potential downside.

And people are either inherently greedy or not. So which one is it?

Who says it is not necessary? What are the downsides? You are saying nothing and just being paranoid.
Do you think in this day and age you can keep your address private?

[pErvinalia]

I've already stated the downsides. That you are too naive to imagine a government abusing its powers is your issue. And it's up to you to say what the upsides are. If you can't come up with any, then it's probably safe to say that there aren't many. And, remember, a live data regime is going to give very little additional info to a four year census, as population movement isn't that great in 4 years.

[Scot Dutchy]

Just how would a government abuse its powers? Strange if you think a government can just do what it wants which is definitely not the case here. There is an agreed coalition agreement and if any part of government does not uphold it there are elections.
You are also now arguing against yourself. If you think data will not change much every four years why not just register instead of the whole carry on of a census and the costs involved?
What is the difference of registration and a four year census which will cost much more and will not be any better at supplying data.

[Brian Peacock]

I've already told you the negatives before. Weakening privacy, uneccesary, and handing government a radical amount of power over its citizens. All governments are corrupt, to varying degrees, and should be given the minimal amount of power to maintain a functioning liberal society. Knowing the location of everyone when there's no real need for it, is not necessary for those goals.

I've given up trying to be anonymous online. What's the point? I'm never without my mobile phone, so they know where I am by simple triangulation, and they already know where I live, how I pay my bills and if I pay them on time, my age, my gender, my marital status. If the government want to track me or lock me up for my political views they will whether I spoof my IP address or use a fake name online or not. I've turned 'Location' on on my phone, confirmed my phone number with Google (it knew what it was anyway), and verified my virtually dormant Facebook account. I wouldn't mind a national ID card scheme either, particularly as I don't drive, haven't got an up-to-date passport, and still have to provide some form of photo ID or three utility bills to pick up my Amazon packages from the Post Office which I live above. The idea that anyone in the West can lead an anonymous, private life is a myth.

And besides, I've told my MOSSAD handler all about you anyway.

[JimC]

Really, the proof is in the pudding. The Dutch do not seem to be moving into a "Big Brother" regime just because of careful bureaucratic information gathering; as long as it is monitored by a free press, and governments are held to account by regular elections, it doesn't have to head in a Soviet style direction.

Having said that, it would not go down well in Oz, for a variety of cultural reasons, so it's (IMO) a non-starter here.

[pErvinalia]

Just how would a government abuse its powers? Strange if you think a government can just do what it wants which is definitely not the case here. There is an agreed coalition agreement and if any part of government does not uphold it there are elections.
You are also now arguing against yourself. If you think data will not change much every four years why not just register instead of the whole carry on of a census and the costs involved?
What is the difference of registration and a four year census which will cost much more and will not be any better at supplying data.

The difference is between respecting your citizens right to privacy, and unnecessary intrusion into people's private affairs. It doesn't matter how many ways you keep asking the same question, the answer is the same.

How would government abuse it's power? 70 odd years ago your neighbour abused its power and murdered millions of its citizens. What's the first step in that process? Identifying and labelling your citizens.

[pErvinalia]

I've already told you the negatives before. Weakening privacy, uneccesary, and handing government a radical amount of power over its citizens. All governments are corrupt, to varying degrees, and should be given the minimal amount of power to maintain a functioning liberal society. Knowing the location of everyone when there's no real need for it, is not necessary for those goals.

I've given up trying to be anonymous online. What's the point? I'm never without my mobile phone, so they know where I am by simple triangulation, and they already know where I live, how I pay my bills and if I pay them on time, my age, my gender, my marital status. If the government want to track me or lock me up for my political views they will whether I spoof my IP address or use a fake name online or not. I've turned 'Location' on on my phone, confirmed my phone number with Google (it knew what it was anyway), and verified my virtually dormant Facebook account. I wouldn't mind a national ID card scheme either, particularly as I don't drive, haven't got an up-to-date passport, and still have to provide some form of photo ID or three utility bills to pick up my Amazon packages from the Post Office which I live above. The idea that anyone in the West can lead an anonymous, private life is a myth.

The difference is, you do that by choice.

[pErvinalia]

Really, the proof is in the pudding. The Dutch do not seem to be moving into a "Big Brother" regime just because of careful bureaucratic information gathering; as long as it is monitored by a free press, and governments are held to account by regular elections, it doesn't have to head in a Soviet style direction.

The question is, why take the risk when the upside is so small and the potential downside so terrible? This is why we put limits on power. Not necessarily for now, but for unforeseen conditions in the future.

[Brian Peacock]

When governments go rogue, and turn into regimes, them knowing or not knowing who you are is immaterial.

[pErvinalia]

It wasn't immaterial to the Jews.

[pErvinalia]

And where the bloody hell is 42?! This is supposed to be his area!

[Scot Dutchy]

Just how would a government abuse its powers? Strange if you think a government can just do what it wants which is definitely not the case here. There is an agreed coalition agreement and if any part of government does not uphold it there are elections.
You are also now arguing against yourself. If you think data will not change much every four years why not just register instead of the whole carry on of a census and the costs involved?
What is the difference of registration and a four year census which will cost much more and will not be any better at supplying data.

The difference is between respecting your citizens right to privacy, and unnecessary intrusion into people's private affairs. It doesn't matter how many ways you keep asking the same question, the answer is the same.

How would government abuse it's power? 70 odd years ago your neighbour abused its power and murdered millions of its citizens. What's the first step in that process? Identifying and labelling your citizens.

Once again you dont understand. You have a paranoia of government and not over private companies. Google and FB know already everything about you. You may claim they dont because you are such an expert but I can assure they do. Australia is a big country and people tend to stick out.
What right to privacy? Just how does the Dutch government intrude into my affairs? I would just love to know what you envisage how that happens. Well I dont have to register to vote. I dont have to ask for health care treatments I am entitled to. Or any other benefits I am entitled to as a pensioner. I get reminded when my driving licence needs renewed or my passport. I cant see any downside. Just please explain what I am missing? I really would love to know. The secret police dont go round the streets picking people up and making them disappear.
You are labelled anyway. You have a census every four years you may think you are not numbered but you are. You are talking against yourself. You dont mind census but oh to registration. You know your trouble you are trying to live in a mythological world of the "Wild Australian" boy.
It does not exist.

As Jim says and I have tried to explain that our political system does not give any government a carte blanch. The scrutiny is intense.

[pErvinalia]

Just how would a government abuse its powers? Strange if you think a government can just do what it wants which is definitely not the case here. There is an agreed coalition agreement and if any part of government does not uphold it there are elections.
You are also now arguing against yourself. If you think data will not change much every four years why not just register instead of the whole carry on of a census and the costs involved?
What is the difference of registration and a four year census which will cost much more and will not be any better at supplying data.

The difference is between respecting your citizens right to privacy, and unnecessary intrusion into people's private affairs. It doesn't matter how many ways you keep asking the same question, the answer is the same.

How would government abuse it's power? 70 odd years ago your neighbour abused its power and murdered millions of its citizens. What's the first step in that process? Identifying and labelling your citizens.

Once again you dont understand. You have a paranoia of government and not over private companies.

I'm not reading past this point. You're off your fucking rocker. It's like trying to debate with Seth.